What was wrong with "These are the Voyages"

[I am Surak]

Hmmm - combining really bad, fat actors in ugly uniforms on a simple set with the great cast and set of enterprise equals artistic quality?
Boy am I glad that I cannot get over my "franchise valentine".
You TNG guys can jump up and down but to me there are only two Trek franchises TOS and ENT. The rest is like the embarrassing branch of the family tree.

 

[Gaith]

Hmmm - combining really bad, fat actors in ugly uniforms on a simple set with the great cast and set of enterprise equals artistic quality?

I was hoping I wouldn't have to explain this myself, but it looks as though I do. Let's look at my remark:

Some ENT fans just can't get over the "franchise valentine" concept and won't stop ever stop moaning about it, even though it has no inherent bearing on the actual artistic quality of the episode.

Assuming full English proficiency, any halfway literate person should have understood that in this context, "artistic quality" is a neutral term, connoting neither good quality nor bad. It's like saying "some L'Oreal fans can't get over the fact that your choice of shampoo has no inherent bearing on the temperature of your bath." Based on that sentence, there's no way of knowing if I'm calling that bath temperature hot or cold.

In other words, I wasn't saying (in that particular post) that TATV is good. I was saying that some ENT fans seem to be so opposed to the Riker and Troi structure of the episode that it blinds them to all other consideration of it as a forty-minute drama.

Those who can't grok language that simple and concise that should probably spend less time watching mediocre pulp television in the first place and more time reading good, challenging books.

 

[I am Surak]

Hmmm - combining really bad, fat actors in ugly uniforms on a simple set with the great cast and set of enterprise equals artistic quality?

I was hoping I wouldn't have to explain this myself, but it looks as though I do. Let's look at my remark:

Some ENT fans just can't get over the "franchise valentine" concept and won't stop ever stop moaning about it, even though it has no inherent bearing on the actual artistic quality of the episode.

Assuming full English proficiency, any halfway literate person should have understood that in this context, "artistic quality" is a neutral term, connoting neither good quality nor bad. It's like saying "some L'Oreal fans can't get over the fact that your choice of shampoo has no inherent bearing on the temperature of your bath." Based on that sentence, there's no way of knowing if I'm calling that bath temperature hot or cold.

In other words, I wasn't saying (in that particular post) that TATV is good. I was saying that some ENT fans seem to be so opposed to the Riker and Troi structure of the episode that it blinds them to all other consideration of it as a forty-minute drama.

Those who can't grok language that simple and concise that should probably spend less time watching mediocre pulp television in the first place and more time reading good, challenging books.

I love my mediocre pulp television and hate "good, challenging books". But I do love a good laugh. Thank you Gaith.
Would love to talk more with you but "Bewitched" is on. Gotta go.
And yes I was never able to "grok" language that simple. Ohh and I love L'oreal products too - because I'm worth it.

I did not want to do this and debate with you but using a term like "artistic quality" does imply that something "artistic" actually happened even if it was "bad quality" artistry. But what if there wasn't even bad art and the episode was just dreck?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Hookay, you all have had your fun dissing people you don't agree with, or whose posts irk you. Now get off your high horses and get over it. This thread is about TATV, not about the people who liked it or hated it or otherwise expressed an opinion about it. Or committed the cardinal sin of misinterpreting something you said.

Surely there is enough in the episode to complain about without targeting your fellow posters.

 

[Saquist]

Hmmm - combining really bad, fat actors in ugly uniforms on a simple set with the great cast and set of enterprise equals artistic quality?
Boy am I glad that I cannot get over my "franchise valentine".
You TNG guys can jump up and down but to me there are only two Trek franchises TOS and ENT. The rest is like the embarrassing branch of the family tree.

uh...no he didn't...

It's one thing to have your favorite...(good taste withstanding)
but TNG isn't regarded by any stretch of the imagination as an embarrassing branch of anything. Not with 18 awards in a Seven Season span. Nominated for 57.

Objectively speaking of course..

 

[number6]

Surely there is enough in the episode to complain about without targeting your fellow posters.

That's all there is, though. Everything to be said about TATV over the last five years have been said....repeatedly, and by exactly the same people, as if they copy and paste their views every time someone starts a TATV SUXXX thread. And frankly that goes for ANIS threads, Endgame threads, Nemesis threads and all the JJ Trek threads.

I don't think it's possible to get any fresh persective on this anymore.

Can we please go back to the Cute Cuddly Alien Space Nazi Summer of Love?

 

[I am Surak]

I'm just having fun and hope that nobody is actually offended by my posts
If anybody is offended just write me off as a loon....

 

[Gaith]

But what if there wasn't even bad art and the episode was just dreck?

A distinction without a difference.

 

[RyuRoots]

You TNG guys can jump up and down but to me there are only two Trek franchises TOS and ENT. The rest is like the embarrassing branch of the family tree.

Funny, that's how I see TOS and ENT, myself. Always interesting to see varying opinions. However, TATV still seems quite terrible to me, and NO Trek deserves a finale that's a friggin' holodeck story.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah. That some ENT fans just can't get over the "franchise valentine" concept and won't stop ever stop moaning about it, even though it has no inherent bearing on the actual artistic quality of the episode.

But what does have bearing is:

-Dumping a two-year storyline (Trip/T'Pol)in two lines.

-A pointless suicide (forgotten five minutes later) in a nonsensical hijacking.

-Shran, probably the reason Andoria joins the Federation (and hence, their version of Archer), being lowlife jewel thief, whose name isn't even known to Riker and Troi.

Those three points are why I see it as an FU to the loyal fans. You don't write a fanwank valentine that pisses over the characters and storylines that those who watched the show for four years actually liked, just to say "TNG rules! Forget the faliure of Enterprise and remember a time when Star Trek was popular and successful!"

 

[JiNX-01]

snip ... NO Trek deserves a finale that's a friggin' holodeck story.

May I borrow this for my new sig? I promise to credit you.

 

[timelord1010]

I think if the powers that be wanted "These are the Voyages" to be a farewell to the fans it should have just been done outside of Enterprise as a special and have Enterprise end with the previous episode.
If the show was supposed to be part of Enterprise it should have been done while the Temporal Cold War was going on and maybe have the Titan involved with the NX-01 instead of a Enterprise-D holodeck story.

 

[Noname Given]

uh...no he didn't...

It's one thing to have your favorite...(good taste withstanding)
but TNG isn't regarded by any stretch of the imagination as an embarrassing branch of anything. Not with 18 awards in a Seven Season span. Nominated for 57.

Objectively speaking of course..

Actually, TNG's first two seasons are generally consider some of the worst Star Trek episodes made (followed by the majority of the third season of TOS - and TOS is my favorite Star Trek series - but, I can still recognize it's flaws too.)

Overall, I think TNG is very overrated it terms of it's 'quality' during it's run. It honestly didn't find it's footing until it's 3rd season either (much like ENT - although ENTs first and second season were nowhere near as bad as TNG's.)

TNG itself had a LOT of rehashed characters from 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture'; and also one from a failed GR pilot - The Questor Tapes.

Deanna Troi = Lt. Iylia (ST:TMP)
William Riker = Captain/Cmdr. Matt Decker (ST:TMP)
Data = The Questor Tapes android (lock stock & barrel)

And, TNG's first season had alienated so many TOS fans that Paramount started offering a first run syndication package that included TOS, and a suggestion from Paramount that local stations 'sandwich' the new TNG episodes between two TOS episodes eah week - and the Producers (and GR) tried (badly) to recreate a TOS McCoy/Spock, by introducing the blatant female 'McCoy clone' character (right down to hating using the Transporter and being an 'old country doctor') of Dr. Katherine Pulaski, and had her going after the most 'Spock-like' character , Lt. Cmdr. Data. The fan response was not pretty.
^^^
It always amazes me that in discussions of things in Star Trek franchise be blatent unoriginal rehashes of things that came before, that these aspects of TNG are somehow dismissed or conveniently forgotten.

 

[Shatnertage]

-Shran, probably the reason Andoria joins the Federation (and hence, their version of Archer), being lowlife jewel thief, whose name isn't even known to Riker and Troi.

SHRAN??? A lowlife JEWEL THIEF? Whose name isn't known to RIKER AND TROI? That's THREE you owe me, pinkskin!

[Sorry, I just had this visual image of Jeffery Combs positively chewing the scenery while reacting to that bit, and wanted to share.]

If you could get him and Gowron together for an episode and just have him SHOUTING with Gowron staring back and bugging his eyes out, that would be a real valentine for the fans.

 

[RyuRoots]

snip ... NO Trek deserves a finale that's a friggin' holodeck story.

May I borrow this for my new sig? I promise to credit you.

Go right ahead, always happy to entertain.

If you could get him and Gowron together for an episode and just have him SHOUTING with Gowron staring back and bugging his eyes out, that would be a real valentine for the fans.

Or Shran and Weyoun trying to out-banter each other. I'd watch that for sure, and I think Combs could pull it off.

 

[Gaith]

I think if the powers that be wanted "These are the Voyages" to be a farewell to the fans it should have just been done outside of Enterprise as a special and have Enterprise end with the previous episode.

See, this is exactly the attitude I mean. To do a special "outside of" Enterprise would have involved a crap-load of logistical, contractual and other expense, and the whole reason ENT was cancelled (and TATV produced) was because it wasn't justifying its own expense.

So TPTB wanted to do a special franchise farewell show, and they used the production machinery (ENT) on hand. Whah, whah, whah.

 

[Silvercrest]

-Shran, probably the reason Andoria joins the Federation (and hence, their version of Archer), being lowlife jewel thief, whose name isn't even known to Riker and Troi.

SHRAN??? A lowlife JEWEL THIEF? Whose name isn't known to RIKER AND TROI? That's THREE you owe me, pinkskin!

[Sorry, I just had this visual image of Jeffery Combs positively chewing the scenery while reacting to that bit, and wanted to share.]

If you could get him and Gowron together for an episode and just have him SHOUTING with Gowron staring back and bugging his eyes out, that would be a real valentine for the fans.

Man, I can just visualize Combs saying that.

This would have been a valentine to the fans if it had been made 20 years later, but: I just watched an episode of TJ Hooker (starring William Shatner and James Darren) that guest-starred Robert O'Reilly and Mark Alaimo-- and O'Reilly played a character named Riker!

 

[JiNX-01]

-Shran, probably the reason Andoria joins the Federation (and hence, their version of Archer), being lowlife jewel thief, whose name isn't even known to Riker and Troi.

SHRAN??? A lowlife JEWEL THIEF? Whose name isn't known to RIKER AND TROI? That's THREE you owe me, pinkskin!

[Sorry, I just had this visual image of Jeffery Combs positively chewing the scenery while reacting to that bit, and wanted to share.]

If you could get him and Gowron together for an episode and just have him SHOUTING with Gowron staring back and bugging his eyes out, that would be a real valentine for the fans.

Man, I can just visualize Combs saying that.

This would have been a valentine to the fans if it had been made 20 years later, but: I just watched an episode of TJ Hooker (starring William Shatner and James Darren) that guest-starred Robert O'Reilly and Mark Alaimo-- and O'Reilly played a character named Riker!

OMG, that's a hoot!

 

[zar]

TNG itself had a LOT of rehashed characters from 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture'; and also one from a failed GR pilot - The Questor Tapes.

Deanna Troi = Lt. Iylia (ST:TMP)
William Riker = Captain/Cmdr. Matt Decker (ST:TMP)
Data = The Questor Tapes android (lock stock & barrel)

Two characters are "a LOT"?

And why is this a bad thing? Every spinoff to date has tried to at least recreate a Spock-ish character and a McCoy-ish character. It's no secret.

And, TNG's first season had alienated so many TOS fans that Paramount started offering a first run syndication package that included TOS, and a suggestion from Paramount that local stations 'sandwich' the new TNG episodes between two TOS episodes eah week

And how do you think DS9, VOY, or ENT would have done if one of them had appeared in the 80s instead of TNG? Of course this was part of the initial reaction. TNG was the first to take the risk of doing Star Trek with a new ship and new crew. The other shows owe their existence to the success of the TNG experiment.

 

[Noname Given]

TNG itself had a LOT of rehashed characters from 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture'; and also one from a failed GR pilot - The Questor Tapes.

Deanna Troi = Lt. Iylia (ST:TMP)
William Riker = Captain/Cmdr. Matt Decker (ST:TMP)
Data = The Questor Tapes android (lock stock & barrel)

Two characters are "a LOT"?

And why is this a bad thing? Every spinoff to date has tried to at least recreate a Spock-ish character and a McCoy-ish character. It's no secret.

And, TNG's first season had alienated so many TOS fans that Paramount started offering a first run syndication package that included TOS, and a suggestion from Paramount that local stations 'sandwich' the new TNG episodes between two TOS episodes eah week

And how do you think DS9, VOY, or ENT would have done if one of them had appeared in the 80s instead of TNG? Of course this was part of the initial reaction. TNG was the first to take the risk of doing Star Trek with a new ship and new crew. The other shows owe their existence to the success of the TNG experiment.

My point was - It also took TNG 3 seasons to get on track; and the first two were honestly WORSE then either of its contemporary spinoffs, yet, a lot of people seem to ignore the fact.

And BTW - for all the crap TOS takes from a number of the TNG crowd at times you'd think they's remember just what GOT TNG itself greenlight in 1986.