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Spoilers What the 32nd century Should look like.

I also didn't like the line in the last episode that going from Species 10C to Federation space would take "decades" with Warp. They're only slightly outside the galaxy, right? So basically warp has barely improved at all...
First, it was President Rillak who did the estimation for "decades" with Warp. And she was never a StarFleet Officer, so her estimation might've been based off of civilian Transport Freightor speeds that she used to work on with her father. She might not know the specs of Discovery-A in intimate detail.

Second, I've already estimated how fast Discovery-A was traveling at warp over in this thread. Discovery-A can hit Wf 57-58 on my Uncapped TNG-era Wf Scale. Even in the worst case scenario of having to cross the long way around from the dimension of the Galactic Halo that would have a Diameter of 600,000 ly. It would take about 308 days to cover that distance. Basically slightly under a Gregorian Year at about 10 months to go home in a "Worst Case" scenario.

If the aperture to 10C was closer, they would only actually need a few months to Warp home at the speeds shown by Discovery-A.

So it's not that Warp Drive hasn't been improved, it's improved significantly, but it's not the fastest FTL drive available, especially compared to the litany of other FTL drives that StarFleet probably has.

It just seemed to me like tech had reached functional limits, as it does. Airliners aren't any faster now, than they were 60 years ago, possibly even a little slower, same for many jet fighters jet fighters. Commercial ships move at about the same speed as those in the 1950's, even if they are faster and easier to offload at port.
Airliners aren't faster because Airlines want to save $$$ on fuel costs and lower the amount of pollution emitted; so if going a bit slower at the optimal cruise speed only loses 30-mins to 1 hr on the trip for significantly less fiscal cost and pollution emitted, then Airlines as a group have decided to go that route. That's the general consensus across the Airline industry.

As for Jet Fighters, the US military already evaluated what's needed for practical combat and changed the focus to being able to carry a significant payload while being able to cruise at a optimal speed along with a reasonable upper limit in Mach Speeds while carrying said payload at a significantly further combat radius.

The focus on pure speed isn't nearly as useful for modern combat aircraft as carrying significantly more payload for your ordinance loadout while having a significantly longer combat radius. The priorities have shifted since the hey days of the cold war era, most fighters jets aren't using After Burners to go past Mach 2 and very rarely need to go that fast, especially given how significant the fuel burn is for doing so. That's why modern design doctrine was adjusted from that mentality.

Commercial Ships are faster on average than the 1950's and more efficient now while doing so, but ships can only go so fast when you get to be so large.
 
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On a certain level you could compare an F4 Phantom with an F-35 Lightning and argue the Phantom can fly faster and higher but that wouldn't remotely explain the technological gulf between the two planes. To someone 60 years ago the F-35 might as well be a flying saucer. I'm not even exaggerating here, I saw an F-35 hover at an air show and it was uncanny, this wasn't like a Harrier which can hover but you can see the effort it's taking, see the plane shake and shudder, this was seamless, effortless. It just hung there. I swear to god it really was like seeing a UFO fitted with some kind of antigrav system.
 
Commercial Ships are faster on average than the 1950's and more efficient now while doing so, but ships can only go so fast when you get to be so large.
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This all depends if you believe in the myth of continuous exponential development that was easy to believe in the 90s, that there's no technological plateau the 24th century was racing toward. From our glimpses of 29th and 30th century Federation, the only major improvements were they got crazy good at time travel. Which they made illegal after the temporal cold war.

How do we know all the other methods of travel are just so energy inefficient they can't be done on a galactic scale? I think they even mentioned slipstreams at one point.
 
On a certain level you could compare an F4 Phantom with an F-35 Lightning and argue the Phantom can fly faster and higher but that wouldn't remotely explain the technological gulf between the two planes. To someone 60 years ago the F-35 might as well be a flying saucer. I'm not even exaggerating here, I saw an F-35 hover at an air show and it was uncanny, this wasn't like a Harrier which can hover but you can see the effort it's taking, see the plane shake and shudder, this was seamless, effortless. It just hung there. I swear to god it really was like seeing a UFO fitted with some kind of antigrav system.
The reason the Harriers shake/shudder was because that was mostly manual stabilization and manual control of the Thrust Vectors.

The reason that the F-35's Hover mode is so stable is because it's largely computer controlled and the pilot points the vector of the direction that he wants the aircraft to face, turn, rotate, or move, and the computer figures out the rest.

In the Harrier, the Pilot has to do more of the nozzle pointing calculations in his head, translated to the thrust nozzles. There is a reason why the Harrier was nick-named the "Widow Maker" by it's pilots.

The major difference between the Harrier's Vertical Thrust System and the F-35's is akin to:
Harrier = Pogo Stick/Unicycle Balancing with & 4x thrust vector nozzles on the sides.
F-35B = Bicycle Balancing with 2x main thrust vectors along the centerline on the aft & center (behind the pilot) with 2x training wheels along the side to assist in balance. Also the computer does most of the balancing work for you, and the pilot dictates where you want it to go.
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This is largely the benefits of the modern Digital Age & Digital Fly-by-Wire systems along with learning from the mistakes / designs of the past.

You have to remember the entire history of Aviations efforts to perfect V/STOL.
There's an entire knowledge base / lineage to develop from. History & Context is very important along with learning from it.
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The rationalizations for how they went the way they went doesn’t change the why. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Completely different setting…that’s almost exactly the same. It was the same issue on ENT and in-part why it sucked. A symptom of internal rot.

Further, we could have made the argument for why it made complete sense that the 32nd century was profoundly different than it is here if they had chosen to go that way, and that would have been what this is here: an after-the-fact intellectual exercise. Done for the same reason these are — love of Star Trek regardless how idiotic.

Shoulda just gone the alternate universe things and solved all their problems. Jump to another dimension and Control is toast, canon isn’t a problem, and this universe can have the federation in whatever state you want and not (rightly) cause as much drama with the fans.
 
This all depends if you believe in the myth of continuous exponential development that was easy to believe in the 90s, that there's no technological plateau the 24th century was racing toward. From our glimpses of 29th and 30th century Federation, the only major improvements were they got crazy good at time travel. Which they made illegal after the temporal cold war.

How do we know all the other methods of travel are just so energy inefficient they can't be done on a galactic scale? I think they even mentioned slipstreams at one point.

Well, we know from even within the Star Trek universe that it's entirely possible to stall on a plateau for thousands or even millions of years and make very slow or even no progress. Take the Voth for example. They seem 'only' about a thousand years more advanced than Voyager, but they're 65 million years old. You would expect them to have reached Q level powers by now - even if not by evolution, by technology. In the case of the Voth, it was clearly also their own doing (Doctrine), but it could for example also be a critical breakthrough technology that keeps eluding the scientists. Something like achieving transwarp, which the Federation has tried unsuccesfully for at least a hundred years by 2370, but then a much harder technology with a much higher threshold still. I see no reason why such a stall couldn't happen to the Federation or their remains.
 
Well, we know from even within the Star Trek universe that it's entirely possible to stall on a plateau for thousands or even millions of years and make very slow or even no progress. Take the Voth for example. They seem 'only' about a thousand years more advanced than Voyager, but they're 65 million years old. You would expect them to have reached Q level powers by now - even if not by evolution, by technology. In the case of the Voth, it was clearly also their own doing (Doctrine), but it could for example also be a critical breakthrough technology that keeps eluding the scientists. Something like achieving transwarp, which the Federation has tried unsuccesfully for at least a hundred years by 2370, but then a much harder technology with a much higher threshold still. I see no reason why such a stall couldn't happen to the Federation or their remains.

The comparison doesn't make much sense to me because the Voth (for example) never really 'tried' to develop TW or other technologies after settling in the DQ and their doctrine was one of the primary factors to blame for the stagnation in question. Their development of TW seemed to be mostly 'accidental' and took a large amount of time to incorporate exactly because of their Doctrine (which had to be adjusted in the face of this new technology).

We also don't know how long early Voth spent in space reaching the Delta Quadrant from Earth. Were they in stasis for most of the time? Did they use Warp technology like early SF, or have they used sublight propulsion coupled with relativitistic effects? For all we know, the Voth may have spent millions of years travelling to the DQ (making only small updates to their technology in the process - especially if they were in stasis) and only recently (n the last several thousand years - possibly even 10 000 years) settled and developed there.
That could explain why we hadn't seen millions (or hundreds of thousands... or heck even thousands) of years worth from progress from the Voth during their voyage to the DQ.
Their Doctrine also came into existence and ended up slowing things down further.

The UFP doesn't have nearly as many (or practically any) hangups in terms of developing technology and emphasizes exploration (which would have pushed it to advance further and faster... beyond the Milky Way even).

Sure, UFP banned certain technologies due to ethical concerns or potential for environmental damage, but nothing on the scale that would prevent them from finding a way to make TW (or other faster than Warp technology) work for their ships (like it was demonstrated that they do but required more R&D to get rid of some initial bugs) or pursuing alternative energy sources which didn't rely on dilithium (which in turn needed heavy mining and recrystalization)... if anything, the UFP would have developed these technologies much faster than the Voth because they would have kept pursuing and actively developing them for the most part (but the way some live actions portrays UFP is that it ABANDONS certain tech after a failed first attempt, which of course is utterly nonsensical - science relies on many previous failures so you can learn from them and then devise safer meansmoving forward - heck, if a VOY crew was able to develop V2 of QS technology in only 4 - 6 months which was thousands of times faster than V1 and no longer had issues with quantum stresses, then this gives you an indication the UFP with all its resources would be able to do FAR more with many other technologies in a similar amount of time or a year or two after at most).

In any event, the amount of effort UFP puts into technological development vs the Voth is like night and day.
And even if a tech wasn't immediately viable... it probably would have become in the next decade or few.

The UFP frequently encountered more powerful species and plethora of anomalies or natural phenomena that endangered their ships and crews... they would have had the motive and dedication (and resources) to make far more breakthroughs and in turn make their ships far more resilient and safer (in the short and long term).

Also, the Voth are isolationists... the UFP readily accepts/absorbs different species, perspectives and their science and technology and incorporates/evolves it from there (because its based on free pursuit and sharing of knowledge, ideas, resources, etc.).

Plateus would only happen if you have social hangups and 0 desire to advance technology... UFP may have banned or restricted some technology, but nothing of the kind was mentioned to have been the cause for not developing much faster propulsion, superior shielding, weapons or energy sources (which would have been necessary to continue exploration of the galaxy and the universe at large - especially because SF officers always loved the prospect at being able to explore beyond the Milky Way), and they still lived in a fairly dangerous galaxy and universe and faced many unknowns on a continuous basis (that alone would have been sufficient to prevent an organisation like UFP from stagnating).

If anythign, a measily bad explanation was given that some technologies proved 'unreliable'. I'm sorry... they were more than reliable for alien species who developed them and used them on a regular basis without problems... and even for SF ships they worked 'temporarily' upon first introduction (and its expected you'll have some 'bugs' to work out initially)... but to think that in 800 freaking years this hadn't changed whatsoever is ludicrous.

Any of the 'kinks' would have realistically been worked out within 10 to 30 (50 at most) years after initial introduction of a technology. SF would also adjust their designs to suit the new tech if the existing designs demonstrate to be less ideal - but hey, even modifying existing ships with new tech that allows 'hops' in crossing large interstellar distances would have changed response times for SF ships for the better.

Say that QS v1 continued to have issues in terms of quantum stresses impacting the hull... fine, just limit it to using it for say 30 or 45 mins at a time and adjust existing ships self repair tech to accommodate as much as it is possible to mitigate those quantum stresses (this can lead to other breakthroughs in the future) - you get faster than Warp tech which you can use for just under an hour at a time with some downtime without having to use or synthesize Benamite crystals in the process (whereas those can be reserved for QS v2 and larger jumps once the phase variance issue was resolved - and that can be done by developing better computer systems - VOY's computer was at the time not fast enough to calculate and adapt to changes in the Slipstream threshold - and benamite crystals would also eventually be able to be synthesized far faster and probably even recrystalized - SF managed to find other solutions to existing technology to augment it... so this wouldn't be that different).
 
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The rationalizations for how they went the way they went doesn’t change the why. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Completely different setting…that’s almost exactly the same. It was the same issue on ENT and in-part why it sucked. A symptom of internal rot.

Further, we could have made the argument for why it made complete sense that the 32nd century was profoundly different than it is here if they had chosen to go that way, and that would have been what this is here: an after-the-fact intellectual exercise. Done for the same reason these are — love of Star Trek regardless how idiotic.

Shoulda just gone the alternate universe things and solved all their problems. Jump to another dimension and Control is toast, canon isn’t a problem, and this universe can have the federation in whatever state you want and not (rightly) cause as much drama with the fans.

ENT is not comparable with DIS. With ENT, TPTB were locked into having that show being presented a certain way and would not listen to anyone, from the designers to cast themselves, on ideas for how the show should really be.

Whereas with DIS, TPTB listen to everyone. Its clearly paying off, since unlike ENT, the show actually made it to S5. DIS just needs to put more thought in their worldbuilding. From the beginning, the show has been trying to re-imagine the TOS era with TNG tech, in the name of bringing the presentation of the Kelvin movies to the small screen. And now that they are far removed from the TOS era and its re-imagining, they are still influenced to have TNG tech. There hasn’t been much imagination of how technology seen before on screen would evolve over 900 years.

Surely its cheaper to make belts and a wrist mounted HUD that serve the functions of an EV suit rather than making an entire EV suit .

Likewise, Detmer has ocular implants. Surely, she should be able to see through walls with the 32nd century version of it and switch to different settings when needed, and that figures into the plot of an episode. Or she doesn’t even not need to have an ocular implant at all and she looks as she did before her injury from Burnham’s War.

If they can have holographic re-creations of real world places in their rooms, why not people, both historical and from their personal life? Wouldn't Burnham look to Sarek and Amanda and Spock for advice on occasion? Or Reno decides she needs to talk to her wife again? For that matter, why not have hologram version of Archer speak at the reveal of Archer spacedock, like how a recording of Zefram Cochrane played before the NX-01 was launched?

And then there's the Emergency Hologram basic installation as seen on La Sirena in PIC, which should exist as standard Federation technology with the Emergency Command Hologram added to it, and have the crew’s likeness assign to it. And if it isn't standard, why not?
 
And then there's the Emergency Hologram basic installation as seen on La Sirena in PIC, which should exist as standard Federation technology with the Emergency Command Hologram added to it, and have the crew’s likeness assign to it. And if it isn't standard, why not?
Limits on AI, which Starfleet has always proven fearful of.
 
Also, without capitalism, how is anyone incentivized to produce a better mode of transport than warp?

*Hides*

There's also the "30th century TVA" theory.

That Daniels and Relativity folk were protecting a specific outcome, and part of protecting that outcome involved not only picking and choosing which time travel misadventures were allowed to have happened, but picking and choosing who got to have advanced technology.

And anyone else who discovered the spore drive was eliminated as a variant, but they couldn't very well stop Discovery from having it or else all biological life goes away.
 
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I have no problems with the look or the state of technology.

But I would like to see a more changed society, or rather societies. (Of course we've hardly seen much of civilian life at all, aside from Booker and that courier culture.) Instead it was all more or less "everything is worse now because of the Burn, let's try and get everything back to he glory old days, when everything was perfect already.
 
Also, without capitalism, how is anyone incentivized to produce a better mode of transport than warp?

*Hides*

Simple. This statement is erroneous because while incentive does exist in capitalism, its mainly there for repetitive and mundane tasks.... for creative ones, capitalism and money are a massive hinderance.
Numerous people end up working on things without getting paid or expecting to get paid simply because they enjoy working on them.
Also, when people's needs are met and don't need to worry about finances, they are free to focus on things more important to them... and they tend to volunteer a lot more.

Most great technological developments that came from people such as DaVinci, Tesla and Einstein were initially developed because they wanted to improve the lives of other people, not get money.
Tesla in fact died in poverty.

Various cures for diseases (such as Polio) were NOT patented for example because the scientists who developed them wanted to eradicate them and make them accessible to everyone.

That Daniels and Relativity folk were protecting a specific outcome, and part of protecting that outcome involved not only picking and choosing which time travel misadventures were allowed to have happened, but picking and choosing who got to have advanced technology.

And anyone else who discovered the spore drive was eliminated as a variant, but they couldn't very well stop Discovery from having it or else all biological life goes away.

And yet, the 32nd century was not aware of Control or the fact all sentient life would have been eradicated if Discovery hadn't jumped forward.
You'd think SF/UFP in the 32nd century would be privy to this information, but they weren't.

From what I can tell, Relativity were there for the purpose of preserving the timeline as they understood it and fixing occasional issues that cropped up in the 24th century which the locals couldn't take care of. Aka, there were some temporal events which needed to be repaired (such as the temporal inversion in the Takara sector [VOY episode 'Timeless']), while others didn't.

Daniels was also tasked with preserving the timeline, and also to thwart any temporal agents... he wasn't tasked to prevent UFP from developing or acquiring advanced tech if it was already part of history which lead to his timeline.

A certain outcome being protected is only expected, otherwise, there would be no Temporal Committee in the 29th century, Relativity, Braxton or even Daniels because they originated from series of events that happened in the past.
 
The Voth not evolving further in 65M years is artistic license. They would have evolved more “in the real world.” Unless they’re some grotesque semi-intelligence that like and sounds like ours but that isn’t nearly as capable of improvement and change. Ours is an intelligence ever in transition. From what we were like 65M years ago to what we might be like 65M years from now. And further.

The Voth are like Frank Herbert’s human in Dune, playing feudal games 10K years in the future. Total silliness.

Technological progress cannot be stopped because it improves the quality of life. That’s why it’s crazy the 32nd century never heard of Control; because if it were forgotten, someone else would have come up with it the following year. If not in the Federation then on Cardassia. Or Ferenginar. Or Tamaria. Or…

One possibility for the Voth is that they went through a post apocalyptic nuclear dark age and had to rebuild from scratch. Maybe after many of their people did ascend to something else. These that remain are descendants ruled by a Church that reinterpreted history to suggest they’ve always been there.

But 65M years is long enough to contain much untold history. Maybe they initially left Earth in cryo ships that were knocked off course, and they did a giant loop out of the galaxy and back tens of millions of years later.
 
Limits on AI, which Starfleet has always proven fearful of.

There are planets not hospitable to humans. This was pointed out in VOY, in reference to class Y planets and class D planets/moons. Holograms actually make sense to send on those particular away missions.

AI is how anyone is able to create androids and other synthetic life. Regardless as to Starfleet’s fear, AIs are not untrustworthy by default and can go either way. You could a Data, EHM, Exocomps, Soji/Dahj, Lal, Juliana Tainer, Unit 6263 or Zora. Or you could get a Control, M-5, Lore, Tan Ru/Nomad, Landru, AGIMUS or the Duroda warhead. I would expect Starfleet to know that by the 32nd century

And it was a Romulan spy that destroyed Utopia Planitia that caused the synth ban, not the synths themselves.
 
The Voth not evolving further in 65M years is artistic license. They would have evolved more “in the real world.” Unless they’re some grotesque semi-intelligence that like and sounds like ours but that isn’t nearly as capable of improvement and change. Ours is an intelligence ever in transition. From what we were like 65M years ago to what we might be like 65M years from now. And further.

The Voth are like Frank Herbert’s human in Dune, playing feudal games 10K years in the future. Total silliness.

Technological progress cannot be stopped because it improves the quality of life. That’s why it’s crazy the 32nd century never heard of Control; because if it were forgotten, someone else would have come up with it the following year. If not in the Federation then on Cardassia. Or Ferenginar. Or Tamaria. Or…

One possibility for the Voth is that they went through a post apocalyptic nuclear dark age and had to rebuild from scratch. Maybe after many of their people did ascend to something else. These that remain are descendants ruled by a Church that reinterpreted history to suggest they’ve always been there.

But 65M years is long enough to contain much untold history. Maybe they initially left Earth in cryo ships that were knocked off course, and they did a giant loop out of the galaxy and back tens of millions of years later.

I also posited that the Voth may have travelled to the DQ at sublight throughout untold generations and using relativity.
They could have spent hundreds of thousands of years in transit with passage of time slower inside the ships, but faster on the outside (occasionally stopping in some systems to resupply, etc.), and might not have settled in the DQ until a few thousand years ago (before encountering VOY for the first time). And their Doctrine can easily explain why they had such long periods of non-advancement. The TW development was accidental and then even more time passed before they incorporated it.

UFP has little to no such cultural hangups and is comprised of over 150 different member planets that have how many alien species part of it contributing to technological and scientific advancement?
The technological and social foundation alone from which the UFP started and is working vs the Voth is incomparable. The UFP would have technically reached (if not surpassed) the Voth's level by the time VOY encountered them.
 
Because being for capitalism is not allowed for a Trek fan...or something.

Because of my knowledge of the population of this board and them being smart enough to intuit I'm intentionally pressing their buttons.

There's no way the Temporal Cold War folk were unaware of what happened in Discovery Season 2. But they probably had strict confidentiality standards too, and much of the data could have been destroyed in the Burn.
 
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