What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[FederationHistorian]

Because its power was only ‘simple impulse.’

But if they bothered to build the Valdore-type, they could have built some carriers for their BoPs.

Ohhhh, that Bird-of-Prey… I was picturing the Romulans using a “Klingon” Bird-of-Prey as it’s original makers. I mean, we saw the Romulans using Klingon Battlecruisers in “The Enterprise Incident”…why shouldn’t this (blasted) ship serve double duty too?

That said, I’d watch it in your version of the fleet, but in mine I’d come up with more original Romulan ships closer to the D’deridex — cruisers to its battleship, and other support craft as well.

I don’t even like the Valdore!

That a totally good point. Why did the Romulans retire that battlecruiser, while the Klingons were fine to continue using it a century later? Do Romulans really only use one or two designs at a time?

 

[Arpy]

But if they bothered to build the Valdore-type, they could have built some carriers for their BoPs.

That a totally good point. Why did the Romulans retire that battlecruiser, while the Klingons were fine to continue using it a century later? Do Romulans really only use one or two designs at a time?

what if the Valdore was a BoP carrier? Those are some long wide flat arms it’s got… What if each one normally comes with three Romulan BoP underneath?

I could even see three “Klingon” BoP (with clean paint jobs) attached to a slightly older looking Valdore-like “carrier.”

Okay, no. On both accounts.

Also, if they didn’t have warp in the 23rd century, they must by now — shuttlespods have warp now.

But we shoulda gotten at least one other 24th Century Romulan ship that looked something like the D’deridex. Specifically, one that had a weird (fantastic!) shape like the D’deridex had that made it distinct from the Klingon ships of the time. This is in part why I don’t care for the Valdore which seems too prosaic. A less interesting successor to the Klingon Bird of Prey, not to the D’deridex.

 

[Dukhat]

You might be right, though the other two unnamed models built from the same kit ("NCC-4186" and "NCC-9481") and apparently weren't built until a couple of years later. Allegedly, the Enterprise kit derived Reliant scale model and the new Trial scale model were the only ones available for season 4 filming.

There was only one scale for the Reliant model kit during that time, 1:537. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

No, although his information was regarded as sufficiently complete that the writers often used for research and this would be a fairly big goof.

He’s been given wrong info before. In his TNG Companion book, he added the Rigel class Tolstoy as one of the models built for BoBW even though there was never a model built for the ship.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

There was only one scale for the Reliant model kit during that time, 1:537. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

You're misunderstanding something alright.

While the top left may have retired by the time of Deep Space Nine, the top right was created for Emissary.

However, even if you are correct about the scale, the point that I was making that there were several different models during the latter years:

Visual Effects Supervisor David Stipes has made use of additional model kits, labeled "NCC-4186" and "NCC-9481", again achieved by rearranging the model kit registry decal [6], for the closing fleet shots in "Call to Arms", footage of which, shot for that episode, was also used for consecutive episodes as stock footage, most notably in the scenes where the ships circled Starbase 375. " Yes, if Miranda = Reliants. (All model kits of Reliant) Not to confuse [the] issue, there may be another Reliant in the distance. We shot several groupings of Reliants. Some were dropped because of technical problems and some ships were removed to make the shot less confusing.", Stipes clarified.

Aside from the filming models, camera test models of the Miranda-class, typically made out of Styrofoam, were used throughout the entire run of Star Trek, where the class was applicable. One of these, endowed with the registry "NCC 1810" was offered up for sale at a February/March 2009 It's A Wrap! sale and auction as Lot 10353, but went unsold.

However, most -- if not all -- of the supplemental models were constructed for the Dominion War during Season 5 or 6 filming, the only models that would have been available to film TWoW is the old scale model pictured in the lower pic above (built to using an Enterprise kit with custom parts for TWoK) and the Trial model that was built for the purpose of being filmed in TWoW.

 

[Dukhat]

You're misunderstanding something alright.

While the top left may have retired by the time of Deep Space Nine, the top right was created for Emissary.

However, even if you are correct about the scale, the point that I was making that there were several different models during the latter years:

Visual Effects Supervisor David Stipes has made use of additional model kits, labeled "NCC-4186" and "NCC-9481", again achieved by rearranging the model kit registry decal [6], for the closing fleet shots in "Call to Arms", footage of which, shot for that episode, was also used for consecutive episodes as stock footage, most notably in the scenes where the ships circled Starbase 375. " Yes, if Miranda = Reliants. (All model kits of Reliant) Not to confuse [the] issue, there may be another Reliant in the distance. We shot several groupings of Reliants. Some were dropped because of technical problems and some ships were removed to make the shot less confusing.", Stipes clarified.

Aside from the filming models, camera test models of the Miranda-class, typically made out of Styrofoam, were used throughout the entire run of Star Trek, where the class was applicable. One of these, endowed with the registry "NCC 1810" was offered up for sale at a February/March 2009 It's A Wrap! sale and auction as Lot 10353, but went unsold.

However, most -- if not all -- of the supplemental models were constructed for the Dominion War during Season 5 or 6 filming, the only models that would have been available to film TWoW is the old scale model pictured in the lower pic above (built to using an Enterprise kit with custom parts for TWoK) and the Trial model that was built for the purpose of being filmed in TWoW.

First of all, there’s no need to be rude. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t being rude to you.

Second, I’m talking specifically about the AMT model kit that both that ship in the WotW screencap and the photo of the Trial was made from. The other ones like breakaway models, etc. have nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

First of all, there’s no need to be rude. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t being rude to you.

I disagree, your arrogant assertion that your headcanon on why there's a difference (even assuming that you're right about the difference) is the only possible explanation was rude.

Second, I’m talking specifically about the AMT model kit that both that ship in the WotW screencap and the photo of the Trial was made from. The other ones like breakaway models, etc. have nothing to do with this discussion.

The AMT model with the removable rollbar has everything to do with this discussion, logically as there were only ever to "scale model Mirandas" (the Diepenbrock model above) and the Trial model, then if the Trial was always assembled correctly as you insist (plausible, and I can't prove you're wrong), then the only other explanation is that the rollbar on the other model was removed and replaced wrong and nobody noticed before filming.

 

[Dukhat]

I’m not sure why you seem to have a problem with our discussion. I made it clear with the photos I posted that the Trial was most likely not the same model as was seen in WotW, since there’s only three possibilities:

1. The model was correctly built, then a photo was taken of it. Then after that, the rollbar fell off and had to be put back on, but it was put back on backwards. Then it was filmed for WotW.

2. The model was incorrectly built, and filmed for WotW. Then after it was filmed, the rollbar fell off. Then it was put back on correctly, and someone took a photo of it.

3. There were two different models.

The scale model originally made for TWOK isn’t a candidate because only the rollbar is facing the wrong way in that screencap, not the nacelles which were attached to the rollbar. The breakaway model is also not a candidate because all three of them were blown up in Emissary. The foam core model is also not a candidate because the ship in that screencap is clearly not a foam core model.

Since you are also seeming to at least acknowledge that fact that there could be two different models, I again am not sure what your problem is other than some perceived idea that I’m being intentionally rude to you somehow.

I’m a big fan of Occam’s Razor. Considering that there were several Reliant model kits built for 5th and 6th seasons of DS9, it stands to reason that it’s more logical that there were simply two different models built rather than all that rigmarole of the first two options, not to mention how unlikely it would be for a rollbar to just randomly fall off after it’s been glued. Am I 100% correct? I don’t know, because I wasn’t there at the time. Neither were you. I’m just using logical deduction. If you have a problem with what I posted or feel that I’m acting arrogant in some way, take it up with me in a PM; don’t drag that crap out here.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I’m a big fan of Occam’s Razor.

So am I. We just have a slightly different interpretation of what the simplest explanation is.

Considering that there were several Reliant model kits built for 5th and 6th seasons of DS9,

But WotW was at the beginning of SEASON FOUR, and only one model -- identified as the Trial -- was built for that season.

it stands to reason that it’s more logical that there were simply two different models built rather than all that rigmarole of the first two options, not to mention how unlikely it would be for a rollbar to just randomly fall off after it’s been glued. Am I 100% correct?

Are you 100% correct that the most likely explanation is that there was a second model built for SEASON FOUR that nobody has ever noticed, rather there be a problem with the single model that was fixed later?

I don't think so, no. Unless I'm missing something about your suggestion?

I'd consider that maybe 10% plausible.

 

[Dukhat]

All we know is that there’s a Miranda class starship docked at DS9 with its rollbar backwards, and a photo of a model kit of the Reliant with the name Trial, with its rollbar correctly placed. We’re told that they’re one and the same model, but to me they are clearly not. I’m going with what my eyes show me before after-the-fact production notes that may not be correct.

On a side note, we had been told for many years from Star Trek production sources that the Enterprise-C model and the Zhukov/Excalibur/Yamaguchi model were one and the same. Guess what? Turns out they were incorrect. So I don’t always 100% trust production sources.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

All we know is that there’s a Miranda class starship docked at DS9 with its rollbar backwards, and a photo of a model kit of the Reliant with the name Trial, with its rollbar correctly placed.

I agree with you that far.

I just think that given how miserly they were about creating new models, particularly complete ones, that it's relatively unlikely but not impossible, that there were two models and one was missed.

Thinking about it, the most likely scenario could be that there weren't two models in season 4, but rather that one of the "Dominion War" models (NCC-4186 and NCC-9481) was actually built first (wrongly) and you were right about the blurb for the Trial being wrong.

On a side note, we had been told for many years from Star Trek production sources that the Enterprise-C model and the Zhukov/Excalibur/Yamaguchi model were one and the same. Guess what? Turns out they were incorrect. So I don’t always 100% trust production sources.

Yes and no.

There were definately two different looks, and that's discounting "battle damage". It's never been confirmed AFAIK that there were two different physical models.

Footage of both the original Enterprise-C model and the Zhukov (which according to Doug Drexler at least were the same, despite fan speculation) were used for the Excalibur and then the Zhukov version of the model was used for the Yamaguchi.

My sources are Memory Alpha and Drexfiles, have you got anything else?

 

[David cgc]

There were definately two different looks, and that's discounting "battle damage". It's never been confirmed AFAIK that there were two different physical models.

Footage of both the original Enterprise-C model and the Zhukov (which according to Doug Drexler at least were the same, despite fan speculation) were used for the Excalibur and then the Zhukov version of the model was used for the Yamaguchi.

My sources are Memory Alpha and Drexfiles, have you got anything else?

This was just recently discussed in the Excelsior thread, which briefly became the Ambassador thread, and is currently the Centaur thread. We've yet to see "proof of life" of the unmodified Enterprise-C still existing in a contemporary photograph or anything like that, but there is some evidence for the two-model theory.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

but there is some evidence for the two-model theory.

If @Dukhat comes up with his claimed evidence that the original Ent-C battle-damaged model was sold on, then I'm fine with believed that the production staff were mistaken, my problem is that as it stands all we have is production statements on one side, and Dukhat's assertions and conclusions about differences on the other (I agree that there are differences in some photos/footage).

And YMMV, but I consider official sources more authorative than a fan's unsupported speculation and statements.

 

[Dukhat]

I possess photos from the member here who has the Enterprise-C model in his possession (or had; I believe he has since sold it.) I would have to ask him for permission to show the photos.

And YMMV, but I consider official sources more authorative than a fan's unsupported speculation and statements.

You can believe whatever you want. I’m going with what my eyes clearly show me.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Doesn't need to be photos for my part.

Actually, I'd prefer other dated evidence, although I'd accept some sort of report or listing that specifically refers to the "filming model of the Enterprise-C".

Otherwise, I'm sticking with production info and would suggest that the other member may be mistaken about the "screen used" nature of the model they have (perhaps it's a lower quality "for sale" model, apparently that's happened?).

 

[David cgc]

For myself, I was pretty well convinced by the 2015 Propstore auction conspicuously not mentioning the model's use in "Yesterday's Enterprise," even though when that model was initially sold at the 2006 Christie's auction, it was referred to as the Enterprise-C (and Zhukov, Excalibur, and Yamaguchi). I'm not sure why it's such a bad-step secret that there would be two models, but it seems like there are.

 

[Dukhat]

Otherwise, I'm sticking with production info and would suggest that the other member may be mistaken about the "screen used" nature of the model they have (perhaps it's a lower quality "for sale" model, apparently that's happened?).

The model that the member here had in his possession was the filming model of the Enterprise-C from "Yesterday's Enterprise." It wasn't a copy or anything like that.

For myself, I was pretty well convinced by the 2015 Propworx auction conspicuously not mentioning the model's use in "Yesterday's Enterprise," even though when that model was initially sold at the 2006 Christie's auction, it was referred to as the Enterprise-C (and Zhukov, Excalibur, and Yamaguchi). I'm not sure why it's such a bad-step secret that there would be two models, but it seems like there are.

I don't think it was a 'secret' so much as it was just Greg Jein doing his thing with his molds and people just not being aware of it. Once you have a mold, you could technically make as many models with that mold as you want until the mold degrades. So instead of making changes to the original model, he took advantage of the new mold and made a second model. Production people not in the know just assumed it was the same model upgraded.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The model that the member here had in his possession was the filming model of the Enterprise-C from "Yesterday's Enterprise." It wasn't a copy or anything like that.

Okay, that would be Adrian Hancock who bought his model in 2006, long after any model would have been used for filming. So that doesn't prove anything either way.

I'm not sure why it's such a bad-step secret that there would be two models, but it seems like there are.

To be clear, it's not necessarily that I doubt there were other models of some sort, it's that there were more than "screen used" model.

However, I agree I can certainly understand your take, and in absense of statements to the contrary, I'd even agree.

The fly in the ointment is this article which does link the two auctions:

https://startrekartifacts.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/enterprise-c-studio-miniature/

Inconclusive perhaps, but certainly suggestive as far as any "deficiences" in the offical Propstore listing.

 

[Dukhat]

@Search4 is the member here who had the Enterprise-C model in his possession. You're welcome to ask him about it. I'm sure he'll be happy to give you all the information about it and the auctions.

 

[Search4]

I have owned the "C" until ~2 years ago. It is not the model sold at Christie's (despite the attribution there) and i was the one who had that attribution removed for the Propstore sale a few years ago (since it was wrong). The "C" is the "C" and is distinctly different than the Ambassador. You can believe they are the same physical model but no, sorry, there are two models.

 

[Arpy]

Coupled with the Ambassador, I wonder why they never reused the Romulan scout ship Alidar Jarok escaped in, in “The Defector.” Both ships were noticeably absent in the fleet shots for me. The Ambassador because you’d think they’d be all over the place, and the Scout simply for variety. Not every Romulan ship can (or should) be a battleship.

“In the Pale Moonlight” maybe would have been the ideal time to introduce a new midsized Romulan ship. If they were going to bring the Romulans into the war, that otherwise bottle episode would have been a good time to invest in a new model.

During the fleet shots you’d have the larger D’deridexes, the midsized ships, and little squadrons of scouts — like they did with the Maquis fighters for the Federation.

I wonder how that might have influenced future Romulan designs in NEM and maybe even PIC.

Again, shape-wise the Valdore looks to me more building on the Klingon Bird-of-Prey than the Romulan D’deridex. There’s a patina of the warbird in the finish, but the shape doesn’t do it for me. That exotic hole in the middle of the D’deridex between the upper and lower hulls and the thin double necks to the head just fascinates me. It makes the otherwise prosaic Romulans alien and mysterious. I would have built on that as much as the bird motif (which we see in a lot of other places too), in the 24th C.