What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Arpy, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    As long as there were Mirandas floating around, a Churchill class would have been cool. [​IMG]
     
  2. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    Your post brings up an interesting point. Why did the Miranda class end up being the only TMP-era design (pre-Excelsior) to survive into the late 24th century when other contemporary classes (Constitution, Constellation, Soyuz, Sydney) either didn't or were on their way out? And surely TMP-era Starfleet had far more designs than just those five. Why didn't ships like what you posted above make the TNG-era cut?
     
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  3. Unicron

    Unicron Boss Monster Mod Moderator

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    I've always been of the mind that just because we don't see such classes, that doesn't mean they're not there. Indeed, my head canon assumes that many of Jackill's Excelsior and Oberth family designs were being built around the turn of the 24th century, as they were slowly phasing out the TOS/TMP designs.
     
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  4. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Here's a model of mine that might have made a good fit.
    Perhaps it's as simple as "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Mirandas are versatile, we've seen, what four variations (If you count the Soyuz). Maybe it's a case of "bang for the buck". Maybe the Miranda fills a particular niche in Starfleet's operational needs and even though those needs have evolved, it still fits in. And don't forget, we did see Oberths as late as the early TNG era.
     
  5. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Where’s your model?

    The Churchill? I haven’t seen it before. Do you have more angles? It’s very pretty and cool.

    EDIT: That said, it does exhibit something I’m not too keen on in a lot of fan designed ships. They’re mostly adding more stuff to the Constitution design or using its exact parts. Thing is, the Constitution is supposed to be the heavy of its fleet. Larger ships (larger combat ships, not freighters and others that you’d expect to be larger though are rarely depicted as such) should be few and far between.

    I guess what I’d like to see are smaller ships made of original parts. Ships that extrapolate from the heavy Constitution the rest of the fleet. One of a similar design style without being an easy kitbash of parts. (Franz Joseph and the Reliant is to blame for some of this.) But look at the “light cruiser” Intrepid. It’s not a Galaxy saucer with one Galaxy nacelle. It’s an original design.

    Im curious what a midsize “cruiser” would look like compared to the Enterprise’s “heavy cruiser.” A Constitution-like saucer that’s one deck tall, not two, at the edge. An even thinner neck (from the side lol). A humbler main deflector. Nacelles without Bussards (or whatever those non-Bussards are at the front of the Refit).
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    I wholeheartedly agree with you. I too would like to see less of the kitbashy stuff that FASA, Franz Joseph, and pretty much every iteration of the original TOS Enterprise has in common. That's why I love the 32nd century Starfleet ships. They have some common design elements, but also some look completely different and almost alien.

    Like for example, if they had used the Leif Ericson as a Starfleet ship in TOS. It has a completely different design than the Enterprise, but would have been believable as a Federation starship of the era.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/40/5e/1d/405e1d761e4fa1c4b8341e177219f0d5.jpg

    There was some of this in TAS, with the cargo drones and the Huron freighter looking nothing like the Enterprise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
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  7. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I couldn't get the model pic to come over for some reason. But, as regards the Churchill, I get what you're saying and agree with you but the reason I like that ship is that it succeeds despite all that baggage. The thing takes design elements from not just the Constitution class, but Excelsior, Ambassador, Miranda, Galaxy and, should be a Frankenfleet monstrosity, but it works.

    Want more views? Just Google.
     
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  8. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Captain Captain

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  9. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To me ..
    Miranda class was a new build as of 2275. It filled a spot of a heavy armed, adaptable, medium cruiser that was probably built well into the 24th century . so given a 75 year life, some are still around or relegated to low key missions. Border patrol, planetary/colony security, courier etc. And those assets were recalled for the war. Anything mothballed was reactivated.

    Now there should have been many refit so it shouldn't look like a 23rd C miranda after 75 years..
     
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  10. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The most obvious change should have been phaser strips.

    Also those mega phasers as Jackill called them could have gone.

    The torpedo pod could have been switched out for something more contemporary.

    The nacelles too.

    Sensors could have been a groove cut into the edge of the saucer as on the Galaxy.

    Raised lines of a contemporary shield grid on the hull.

    New transporter strips there too.

    Maybe new impulse and RCS thrusters.

    Not all Galaxy or Sovereign eras, but certainly something closer to them if they’re still in service.

    Especially given that they’re here going up against Dominion ships, ones that forced Starfleet to scramble after the loss of the Odyssey a couple years earlier. You don’t send biplanes (or what have you) against F-15’s even if you’re losing the war.

    …that’s harder to draw or render. It’s takes a lot of creative as well as technical talent to match the expert level that gave us the Miranda, but it would be nice to see, if we’re going to go there.
     
  11. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    The Reliant’s registry NCC-1864 was seen on Commodore Stone’s wall chart in ‘Court Martial,’ which took place in 2267. So either the Miranda class as seen in TWOK existed that far back, or it was originally a TOS version that was refitted like the Enterprise was.
     
  12. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Captain Captain

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    The Merced class that was built for but apparently not shown on DS9 does some of these things, but I'm not a fan of how that ship looks. I'm not saying your ideas would not work, but as a physical kitbash using parts that were not scaled as they might be in-universe but instead were wahtever size the AMT parts happened to be, it was not great...of course a big part of that problem was that the nacelles are on top and not much higher than the bridge, if that is even what it supposed to be at the top of the saucer on that ship.

    So far, to my knowledge there is no confirmation that the chart says 1864 (there was a thread looking for this confirmation for another reason and none could be confirmed. It might also be 1664, 1884, 1684.
     
  13. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    I’ve seen Blu-ray screencaps of the chart, and the number sure looks like 1864 to me. But no, I cannot say with 100% certainty that that’s what it says. Just, maybe, 85% certainty :)
     
  14. Tim Walker

    Tim Walker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I can see a couple different uses for those Mirandas during the war:

    1. Troop ships.

    2. Freighters.
     
  15. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And wingmen for the state of the art USS Defiant apparently.

    I was going to say that in my AI retouching of that scene, I’m going to switch those two out for a couple of Saber, Mark I’s maybe. But then I thought of how the fleet shots had ships far too close together for my tastes anyway. I would completely remake those battles with the ships far further apart, traveling dizzying speeds, weapons really going at speed of light, shield bubbles, different combat maneuvers and flight styles for different types of ships… It will be glorious.
     
  16. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    While the original models weren't great, I did like that STO did initially modify their Mirandas and Constitutions to have upgraded 24th century parts like phaser strips, escape pods, and that weird fixation on ceiling-windows. The replacement canon models are definitely more detailed, but I'd be interested in another attempt at the same concept, or maybe a few more. Give some freeze-frame bonuses to the DS9 battle scenes, where the Mirandas (and other ships) all had varying details depending on how they were upgraded and when, something like how all the X-Wings in the original Star Wars had unique paint jobs, over and above the specific squadron markings.
     
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  17. Deks

    Deks Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe Starfleet didn't see a need to change the late 23rd century designs like the Excelsior and Miranda's much externally because they found a way to keep them as they are externally while needing only internal upgrades and bring them up to late 24th century standards - adaptive algorithms would have done this easily. So, they probably reinforced the ball turrets to be able to shoot much more powerful phaser beams (comparable to what the phaser strips could deliver... but the strips themselves would likely be more versatile and better protected in case of system failure and they provide better coverage).

    As we saw, the USS Lakota (excelsior class) was on par with the Defiant in firepower and defenses without having the benefit of Ablative hull armor like the Defiant... however O'Brien suggested the Lakota was much faster than the Defiant when at Warp.

    I wouldn't have expected those designs to change externally until maybe the 25th century.
    Or, Starfleet WANTED to change them externally to match late 24th century design aesthetics more, but this might not have been planned until around the Dominion War... so with the impending War looming, instead of a full blown external/internal refit, they opted to boost the ships internally (resulting in 24th century modern ships firepower and shield strengths... probably the same for power delivery and sensors) only and provide them with extra hull reinforcements on critical areas to improve Warp capability.
    They would eventually (probably after the War) be upgraded progressively much like the Discovery had been to streamline and further optimize the designs and bring them in line with late 24th century or early 25th century designs.

    Its probably also why Starfleet could still have Excelsiors, Miranda's and even Constitution class ships in the 32nd century... if you progressively fully upgrade the ships from the inside out with automation... full blown external/visual change would occur maybe 100 odd years down the line (unless a fundamental design advancement occurs which has to be integrated throughout the fleet).

    I fully suspect these ships can remain in service indefinitely with upgrades... the space frame itself would be 'refreshed' during major refits every 7 years or so anyway... so the infrastructure would be constantly maintained via automation.
     
  18. Tim Walker

    Tim Walker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What seems to be missing? There seems to be in the Miranda size range a sweet spot for a versatile, multi-role work horse. I see the fan designs, but not a canon design.
     
  19. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What do you mean Miranda-sized? Length or volume or crew or…?

    I’m fine with a newer Saber or Intrepid or Apollo Classes doing the escorting we saw the Miranda put to. They could all be “versatile workhorses” for all we know and the Miranda a finicky pain in the ass.

    Remember that the Miranda in its day was a frigate, not a cargo vessel or corvette or escort or whatever else. Starfleet would have built new frigates to take over that role (the Nebula or Akira or Ronin Classes) and smaller vessels to serve in other roles.

    Thinking that they don’t exist because we haven’t seen them is like thinking that Starfleet was comprised entirely of Constitution Class starships in the TOS Era.

    Tell you what, since they did stick ancient Miranda’s in there, it would have been cool to see roll-bar-less USS Lantree versions, pointy USS Saratoga versions, and greebly USS Bozeman versions in the fleets too. Along with Constellation, Constitution, and Sydney contemporaries for good measure. Or, I mean, basically half the ships in Jackill’s Starfleet Reference Manuals, Volumes I - III
     
  20. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    More of a light cruiser in 20th century terms, although it would probably have been a frigate in the Age of Sail (as would the Connie).

    Nebula, Akira and Ronin class vessels aren't frigates either, too big for one thing. And the Nebula at least has most of the volume and resources of a Galaxy just in a slightly more compact package.

    The Centaur-type, the rarely seen New Orleans class and the similar sized but "stockier" Intrepid would be the frigates of their eras. Some or all of the other semi-canonical designs like the single-nacelled Freedom-class, the vertical-stacked Challenger, the Constellation-esque Cheyenne, the Norway and the "Nebula-Oberth love-child" Springfield could also be frigates or corvettes/patrol ships.


    And yet, many fans decried the Kelvin Timeline and DSC for "going against canon" and applying the "starship" designation to other designs during that era, because the 'obvious' meaning of "only twelve like her in the fleet" is that the fleet consists of only twelve major vessels plus support ships... rather than it telling us nothing about the fleet other than that there are 12 or 13 Connies in it.

    Maybe it's splitting hairs, but I have less of an issue with Miranda's like the ShirKahr, the Nautilus, the Saratoga (II) and the Sitak, who are at least implied to be perhaps Ambassador-era "Block III" designs (cf the DDG-116 sub-type of Burkes in the RW) by their registrations (can of worms I know, but let's run with it...), than I do the Trial which is somewhat implied to be a Block I ala the Lantree, Reliant and Saratoga (I) by it's registry.