What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[Arpy]

More of a light cruiser in 20th century terms, although it would probably have been a frigate in the Age of Sail (as would the Connie).

Nebula, Akira and Ronin class vessels aren't frigates either, too big for one thing. And the Nebula at least has most of the volume and resources of a Galaxy just in a slightly more compact package.

How is this different from the Miranda compared to the Constitution? They’re almost the same size as well.

And yet, many fans decried the Kelvin Timeline and DSC for "going against canon" and applying the "starship" designation to other designs during that era, because the 'obvious' meaning of "only twelve like her in the fleet" is that the fleet consists of only twelve major vessels plus support ships... rather than it telling us nothing about the fleet other than that there are 12 or 13 Connies in it.

Ah yes, the flat-Earther contingent. A Federation of hundreds of billions or trillions of people…with 12 ships of 400 people each and support craft.

Maybe it's splitting hairs, but I have less of an issue with Miranda's like the ShirKahr, the Nautilus, the Saratoga (II) and the Sitak, who are at least implied to be perhaps Ambassador-era "Block III" designs (cf the DDG-116 sub-type of Burkes in the RW) by their registrations (can of worms I know, but let's run with it...), than I do the Trial which is somewhat implied to be a Block I ala the Lantree, Reliant and Saratoga (I) by it's registry.

What are these other ships from? Nautilus, Burkes, Trial, etc.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

How is this different from the Miranda compared to the Constitution? They’re almost the same size as well.

It is really, the Miranda and Connie would both be cruisers, though the latter is perhaps more of a "pure" or traditional cruiser, whereas the Miranda is more of a cruiser/light carrier hybrid which may have given a bit more legs in the long term.

Ah yes, the flat-Earther contingent. A Federation of hundreds of billions or trillions of people…with 12 ships of 400 people each and support craft.

Pretty much.

What are these other ships from? Nautilus, Burkes, Trial, etc.

The ShirKahr, the Nautilus, the Saratoga (II), the Sitak and the Trial are Mirandas that served during the Dominion War:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Miranda_class#Ships_commissioned

"Burkes" is the commonly used nickname for the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer (which is basically a cruiser) used by the US Navy. The "DDG-116 sub-type" is a 'stop gap' hull between the older incrementally upgraded early Burkes (Blocks I to IIA) and the new build DDG-125s that were approved after the DDG-100 type ("Zumwalts") were essentially abandoned as the future US "major surface combatant".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arleigh_Burke-class_destroyer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thomas_Hudner
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Jack_H._Lucas_(DDG-125)

 

[Tim Walker]

Borg/Dominion Crisis Era

Support vessels:

1. Federation tug

2. Sydney class (personnel transport)

3. Pasteur class (hospital ship)

4. California class (multi-role utility vehicle)

5. Constellation class (multi-role)

6. Miranda class (multi-role)

7. Ju 'day/Maquis Raider/Federation Raider (Multi-Role)

 

[Nightfall to-Ennien]

I always kind of figured that the capabilities of Miranda class starships varied wildly. She had greater internal volume than her design contemporary Constitution class, and unlike the Constitution, it was all arranged in a single monobloc hull with two giant holes in the back, so over the years they could have been shifted from front-line duties to personnel and cargo transport duties, like the Trial, while if the hull is up to the stress (see the Majestic or Shi’Kahr) you hot rod it with a more powerful engine and better systems and put her back into front-line service.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

shifted from front-line duties to personnel and cargo transport duties, like the Trial,

I think you mean the Lantree (Block I) or Brattain (Block II).

The Trial appeared as a front-line combat vessel in two of it's three appearances.

In fact, given that it was one of the few survivors of Operation: Retrieve, the implication is that it's one of the most capable vessels in the fleet. Which is weird, as even among the Mirandas present it was also one of the oldest (it was a Block I, the others were Block III's).

 

[Dukhat]

The Trial model was not actually the ship docked at DS9 along with the Venture. If you look closely, the rollbar on the ship is backwards, while the Trial’s rollbar is correctly positioned.

 

[FederationHistorian]

United Federation of Planets

Sovereign-class
Galaxy-class
Akira-class
Saber-class
Steamrunner-class
Defiant-class
Intrepid-class (shown to be pretty resilient to heavy damage after a year)
Federation raider
Excelsior-class (Lakota refit)
Olympic-class (hospital ships)

Federation vessels open for debate (vessels used during the Battle of Wolf 359)

Nebula-class
Miranda-class
Oberth-class
Cheyenne-class
Challenger-class
Springfield-class
Freedom-class (24th century version)
New Orleans-class
Niagara-class
Ambassador-class
Constitution-class

Klingon Empire

Bird-of-Prey (B’Rel)
Bird-of-Prey (K’Vort)
Vor’cha
Negh’Var

Romulan Star Empire

D’deridex class
Valdore-type
Bird of Prey (if the Federation are comfortable using the Miranda class, then why didn’t the Romulans bring out the BoP?)

 

[Dukhat]

Bird of Prey (if the Federation are comfortable using the Miranda class, then why didn’t the Romulans bring out the BoP?)

Because its power was only ‘simple impulse.’

 

[Arpy]

Because its power was only ‘simple impulse.’

Ohhhh, that Bird-of-Prey… I was picturing the Romulans using a “Klingon” Bird-of-Prey as it’s original makers. I mean, we saw the Romulans using Klingon Battlecruisers in “The Enterprise Incident”…why shouldn’t this (blasted) ship serve double duty too?

That said, I’d watch it in your version of the fleet, but in mine I’d come up with more original Romulan ships closer to the D’deridex — cruisers to its battleship, and other support craft as well.

I don’t even like the Valdore!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The Trial model was not actually the ship docked at DS9 along with the Venture. If you look closely, the rollbar on the ship is backwards, while the Trial’s rollbar is correctly positioned.

Yeah, it was. In fact it was specifically built and filmed for that episode, it's appearances as a transport in Doctor Bashir, I Presume (which was appropriate) and Sacrifice of Angels (at least were the reg is legible) was recycled (perhaps corrected) footage from The Way of the Warrior.

In any case, the Trial's appearance in Sacrifice of Angels is the one that particularly bothers me as it suggests that a 75 to 100-year-old mid-size vessel outperformed all the newer, more powerful ships like the Akira, Galaxy and Saber-class, whereas at least WotW it reads like it was just there to "make up the numbers".

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah, it was. In fact it was specifically built and filmed for that episode, it's appearances as a transport in Doctor Bashir, I Presume (which was appropriate) and Sacrifice of Angels (at least were the reg is legible) was recycled (perhaps corrected) footage from The Way of the Warrior.

Actually, there were many Reliant model kits built for background shots, the Trial being only one of them. And while that original WotW shot has a Reliant model docked at the station (and possibly built specifically for that shot as you say), it’s unlikely the same model for the reason I gave above.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Exactly the same shots (of Venture, two Excelsiors and a Miranda) are used in all three episodes and the Trial is identified one of the ships involved by StarTrek.com, so while I would prefer that you're right as it would avoid an old junker being an "elite combat starship", I'm not sure that it works.

 

[Dukhat]

Startrek.com is not a reliable source. I can clearly see that the ship in WotW (and stock footage thereof) has its rollbar on backwards. The Trial has its rollbar correctly placed. I highly doubt that they’re the same model.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Startrek.com is not a reliable source.

Maybe not.

However what images of the USS Trial are you taking about then?

Screencaps on Trekcore quite clearly show reused footage from TWoW in DBIP and SoA, so if you can't be talking about on-screen footage.

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe not.

However what images of the USS Trial are you taking about then?

Screencaps on Trekcore quite clearly show reused footage from TWoW in DBIP and SoA, so if you can't be talking about on-screen footage.

Here’s the screencap of the ship docked at DS9:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/m...ision/latest?cb=20190224085428&path-prefix=en

Here’s the Trial model:

https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/trial-model.jpg

The rollbars are positioned differently on both ships. So the prevailing thought that the ship docked is the same ship in that model photo is incorrect.

 

[thribs]

Those copy and paste ships could have been handy

 

[Dukhat]

Those copy and paste ships could have been handy

What?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The rollbars are positioned differently on both ships. So the prevailing thought that the ship docked is the same ship in that model photo is incorrect.

There's a problem with that "prevailing theory".

If you do an image search for EAS model, then you find the original source https://www.flickr.com/photos/22597000@N07/3530829368, which has the description:

Larry
USS Trial kitbash
A USS Reliant/NCC-1864 AMT model kit, kitbashed with a simple decal switcheroo as the USS TRIAL, NCC-1948: DS9's "Way of the Warrior"

So either your analysis is faulty, or the model was changed for some reason between the two shots.

 

[Dukhat]

There's a problem with that "prevailing theory".

If you do an image search for EAS model, then you find the original source https://www.flickr.com/photos/22597000@N07/3530829368, which has the description:

Larry
USS Trial kitbash
A USS Reliant/NCC-1864 AMT model kit, kitbashed with a simple decal switcheroo as the USS TRIAL, NCC-1948: DS9's "Way of the Warrior"

So either your analysis is faulty, or the model was changed for some reason between the two shots.

Or Larry just wasn’t given the correct information.
Have you ever built scale models? Once that glue dries, it’s almost impossible to separate parts from a model without breaking the model. It’s far more likely that Nemecek was told that this particular model was used for the shot when in fact a different model was used. Nemecek didn’t work on the show as part of the VFX personnel. He’s just given info that other people tell him.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Or Larry just wasn’t given the correct information. It’s far more likely that Nemecek was told that this particular model was used for the shot when in fact a different model was used.

You might be right, though the other two unnamed models built from the same kit ("NCC-4186" and "NCC-9481") and apparently weren't built until a couple of years later. Allegedly, the Enterprise kit derived Reliant scale model and the new Trial scale model were the only ones available for season 4 filming.

Nemecek didn’t work on the show as part of the VFX personnel. He’s just given info that other people tell him.

No, although his information was regarded as sufficiently complete that the writers often used for research and this would be a fairly big goof.