What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[Arpy]

In my mind’s eye, I imagine battles including many other ships than those we saw. I’m a huge TNG fan and could see fleets of ships entirely from the “Galaxy Era” below, but here are a bunch of ships I could imagine in “remastered” Dominion War scenes (also shield bubbles ):

Newer Era ships:
Sovereign
Prometheus
Akira
Saber
Luna
…and other ships of the Era that you’d imagine are around (e.g. something like, with some refinements, the fan-designed Ronin Class as the Miranda of its day)

Intermediate Era:
Defiant
Intrepid
California (support ship)
Pasteur (medical support ship)

Galaxy Era:
Galaxy
Nebula
New Orleans
Cheyenne
Saber, Mark I (fan)
USS Preble (fan)
Risa Express (okay not this so much, but I like how it’s the Sydney Class of its day, and this could be a troop transport for planetary invasions)

Earlier Era:
Ambassador (Probert)
Apollo (a version using Probert variant parts would be amazing)

In between eras ships too like:
Balmung (as this is a mashup of the Excelsior and Ambassador, one using Probert Ambassador parts here too would be amazing)

Kitchen Sink:
Excelsior (Lakota refit)
Centaur
Curry
Loki (Jackill fan design)
USS Alacrity (fan)
USS Terrell (fan)

Nothing older though. To me seeing Mirandas in the Dominion War is like seeing sailing ships in WWII. If there were any left in the navies of nations at the time, they weren’t engaged in fleet battles. The Excelsior Era ships were the throw-everything-left-at-them-including-the-kitchen-sink support ships in my fleets.

 

[Arpy]

That's 26 ships (and counting). A tighter list, with still considerable diversity, would be:

1. Sovereign
2. Prometheus
3. Akira
4. Defiant
5. Intrepid
6. Pasteur (medical support ship)
7. Galaxy
8. Nebula
9. New Orleans
10. Cheyenne
11. Saber, Mark I (fan)
12. USS Preble (fan)
13. Risa Express (okay not this so much, but I like how it’s the Sydney Class of its day, and this could be a troop transport for planetary invasions)
14. Ambassador (Probert)
15. Apollo (a version using Probert variant parts would be amazing)

Ideally, I would have liked:

1. Pasteur (medical support ship)
2. Galaxy
3. Nebula
4. New Orleans
5. Cheyenne
6. Saber, Mark I (fan)
7. USS Preble (fan)
8. Risa Express (okay not this so much, but I like how it’s the Sydney Class of its day, and this could be a troop transport for planetary invasions)
9. Ambassador (Probert)

These are all ships that we've seen or have models for. Ideally, there would be even more ships that we don't: cargo ships, repair ships, ships of other weird configurations, etc. that fit the look and tech of the period.

And then there's the matter of the Klingon and Romulan fleets.

 

[Arpy]

Hey moderator (@Savage Dragon), would you please move this thread to Trek Tech? Thanks!

Looking at the Klingon fleet, there's actually a surprising amount of diversity of designs to look at.

There's the ships you would expect:
1. Negh'var
2. Vor'cha
3. I'm on the fence about putting the Bird-of-Prey on this list. It's at least Miranda Class old, and it's not very powerful. Kruge says that the Constitution Class Enterprise outguns it by a lot; remember that it's a 12-man scout-like ship in ST:III. But I think the Klingons are less technologically sophisticated than the Federation and it might make sense that they use designs that they develop for very long periods of time. This would be among the oldest designs still in use, relatively new in the late 23rd Century.

There are a few ships we saw in DS9 that would have been cool to include in the background too:
4. Par'tok Type Cargo Ship (carrying fleet supplies, planetary assault craft, etc)
5. Promelian Style Klingon Ship (was there a Promellian revival in the Empire?)
6. Troop Transport (it was a civilian transport in "Rules of Engagement" it but could do double duty)

Some interesting might have beens:
7. Okuda K'Vort (for far away shots)
8. Alternative Kronos One study model (a contemporary of the K't'tinga, this might have been the last of this kind of ship)

Some interesting unofficial and fan designs:
9. TNG Battlecruiser (the ship that replaced the iconic/aged K't'inga/D7)
10. K'mirra FASA battlecruiser (a curious mix of the K't'inga and Bird-of-Prey)

11-13. It might also have been cool to see 24th Century versions of the Bird-of-Prey, and the Raptor and "Goroth's ship" from ENT.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Massive fleets of those kitbash ships everyone hates. Led by the USS Raging Queen.

 

[Phoenix219]

The comparison with sailing ships doesn't work - just because a large amount of time has passed, doesn't mean that those ships, made with 23rd century space-age tech, tech that is hundreds of years more advanced than our own, would remotely have aged/timed out in the mean time. The leap between a sailing ship and something like a nuclear sub or aircraft carrier is much larger than the minor upgrades between the 23rd and 24th century, where all the base technology has already been created, and just refined. As long as the hull's are still structural stable, and the ships are upgraded with newer shield/engine/weapons configurations, and the newest OS computer terminals, is there any reason why they wouldn't keep up? If you put a modern engine and control system in a vintage car, is that still an ancient car? or just a shell like a kit car, with modern stuff in it?

We have also seen them get ships working hundreds or thousands of years after being abandoned or crashed..... obviously these things have a long lifespan.

 

[Arpy]

The comparison with sailing ships doesn't work - just because a large amount of time has passed, doesn't mean that those ships, made with 23rd century space-age tech, tech that is hundreds of years more advanced than our own, would remotely have aged/timed out in the mean time. The leap between a sailing ship and something like a nuclear sub or aircraft carrier is much larger than the minor upgrades between the 23rd and 24th century, where all the base technology has already been created, and just refined. As long as the hull's are still structural stable, and the ships are upgraded with newer shield/engine/weapons configurations, and the newest OS computer terminals, is there any reason why they wouldn't keep up? If you put a modern engine and control system in a vintage car, is that still an ancient car? or just a shell like a kit car, with modern stuff in it?

We have also seen them get ships working hundreds or thousands of years after being abandoned or crashed..... obviously these things have a long lifespan.

Maybe. Vintage cars aren’t getting fired at by antimatter and exotic alien weapons.

Or traveling FTL. Janeway said that 24th Century ships are twice as fast as those of the 23rd Century — that could be a lot of constant structural stress on older ships.

Plus, Trek never alters the look of ships no matter how long in service. The Miranda looks exactly the same in the Dominion War as it did in the Mutara Nebula. We imagine that it’s been heavily upgraded and pretend it’s perfectly normal that you’d never know it to look at it. The work of the Starfleet Board for Vintage Esthetics no doubt.

If time and budget aren’t issues, every single ship not recently built in-universe should probably have various updates to the design to show upgrades.

 

[Phoenix219]

I'm sure they do, but why would these upgrades manifest as exterior groibles? Quite sure I already stated the insides are completely upgraded, but no reason to think high quality alloys that last thousands of years (shit, look at Data's head, or whatever they did in Time's Arrow) would need to show physical alterations, as long as the interiors are overhauled.

 

[Arpy]

I'm sure they do, but why would these upgrades manifest as exterior groibles?

Why wouldn’t they? They’re different technologies. If phaser strips are no better than those little round ball phasers, why not keep the little round balls? If the strips are better, then how dangerous is it for the crews keeping the balls for esthetic reasons?

Quite sure I already stated the insides are completely upgraded, but no reason to think high quality alloys that last thousands of years (shit, look at Data's head, or whatever they did in Time's Arrow) would need to show physical alterations, as long as the interiors are overhauled.

Data’s head sat gathering dust in a cave protected from the elements. Starships are in constant use.

And the requirements for that use are constantly changing. The Borg and the Dominion each demanded that Starfleet create far stronger ships. I’d say the reintroduction of the Romulans with the D'deridex and decades of Cold War with the Klingons (whose main “industry” is war) also meant new technologies. All these mean new shields and new hulls of new materials (e.g. the Defiant’s ablative armor). It’s far easier and less expensive to build a new ship than rebuild an older one identically matching a specific esthetic — if it’s even possible at all.

 

[Timo]

Then again, certain other requirements never change. Safely studying a pulsar up close in 2371 would take the same tech it took a billion years ago and will take a billion years from now. Safely engaging an alien culture at Tech Level 47 would call for the same sort of tech every time, even if Starfleet now occasionally also engaged Tech Level 52 cultures; the galaxy wouldn't run out of TL 47ers any time soon. So it might be attractive to build all-new ships for studying pulsars even closer up, and for engaging TL 52ers, while retaining all the older ships for dealing with the unchanging challenges.

For some reason, Starfleet always has a shortage of ships, though. If it's because the running costs break its back, then retaining of older ships in service won't work, and it's better to vector an excessively advanced ship to deal with those TL 47 folks after all.

5. Promelian Style Klingon Ship (was there a Promellian revival in the Empire?)

Was that even a Klingon ship? Noggra speaks of "our shuttle" rather than of a ship...

Then again, it's pretty unlikely that Promellians themselves would visit the station in the flesh. Somebody alien was flying that ship, and might just as well be it was the Klingons. Odd that Picard was so in awe of the derelict vessel (and the vessel specifically, rather than some other aspect of the Promellians) back in "Booby Trap", if these things are being resold all across the quadrant.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

Then again, certain other requirements never change. Safely studying a pulsar up close in 2371 would take the same tech it took a billion years ago and will take a billion years from now. Safely engaging an alien culture at Tech Level 47 would call for the same sort of tech every time, even if Starfleet now occasionally also engaged Tech Level 52 cultures; the galaxy wouldn't run out of TL 47ers any time soon.

And yet we never see TOS ships in the movies let’s alone the 24th Century. And the moment they have the budget for it, they use new ships not renders of older ones. The same with matte paintings or shots of the hero ship passing by the same stars regardless what area of the space it’s in.

Was that even a Klingon ship? Noggra speaks of "our shuttle" rather than of a ship...

It’s a big shuttle? It’s fairly clear in the episode that that now green ship (from a touched up shot of a Skrreean ship from “Sanctuary”) is the one Noggra arrived on.

I’m fine with it. It could be new ship styled as a famous old one. Heck, maybe the Promellians were a Klingon offshoot race? Or vice versa? Or a people whose territory is now mostly Klingon and whose civilization they’re fascinated by for going out in a blaze of glory.

(Though the Promellian makeup has been reused for other aliens, so maybe though the civilization went extinct, not all the people did.)

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Well, since John Eaves was on DS9 back then, they could’ve gone a somewhat PIC-like route and asked him for three new ship designs, then simply instantiated those into, say, 1000 ships per fleet? Imagine the time it would’ve saved Digital Muse on “Sacrifice of Angels”, converting into LightWave or modeling all those Starfleet classes.

(Really, it’s not that strange if you consider that the Dominion only used two designs most of the time. They got a third one in “Valiant”, and briefly in Season 5 they had VisionArt’s “V-ship” accident? simplification? of the battlecruiser, but that was it. Why give Starfleet a hodgepodge of classes if their enemies were perfectly fine with just a few designs, presumably optimized for that particular fight?)

 

[Arpy]

There are a couple of Jem’Hadar designs made for the games that I think would fit in nicely to remastered fleets, filling in size gaps and marrying different esthetics:

1. Strike Ship (a pointier variant of the Attack Fighter)
2. Strike Cruiser (a midsized ship between the Attack Fighter and Battle Cruiser)

 

[Boris Skrbic]

The problem is that TOS-R isn’t some kind of a milestone in franchise history encouraging Star Trek fans to imagine for the next fifty years that DS9 and other shows could be remastered with highly perceptible VFX replacement. Creatively it was not a good idea, dating TOS to a weird combination of 1960s live action and low-budget 200x VFX, and Dave Rossi initially had significant misgivings when the proposal was made to give fans something new on broadcast TV. He ultimately relented because the assignment fell to him (and the Okudas and others), not to someone else.

Therefore, let’s try to explain what we have rather than imagine what should be there. It turns out it’s possible to fight a war with only a few advanced ship designs, which was demonstrated again on PIC when Riker’s fleet showed up.

 

[Arpy]

The problem is that TOS-R isn’t some kind of a milestone in franchise history encouraging Star Trek fans to imagine for the next fifty years that DS9 and other shows could be remastered with highly perceptible VFX replacement. Creatively it was not a good idea, dating TOS to a weird combination of 1960s live action and low-budget 200x VFX, and Dave Rossi initially had significant misgivings when the proposal was made to give fans something new on broadcast TV. He ultimately relented because the assignment fell to him (and the Okudas and others), not to someone else.

Therefore, let’s try to explain what we have rather than imagine what should be there. It turns out it’s possible to fight a war with only a few advanced ship designs, which was demonstrated again on PIC when Riker’s fleet showed up.

There’s no need to explain what we have. They’re the cheapest effects they could complete in time to give an impression of what the writers wanted to say.

Further explanation is can be interesting, but most of the time for me it’s usually the opposite.

I’ve never really been able to accept the remastered TOS effects as “real” moments in-universe. And I imagine they will be redone again one day. Here we imagine what might be with another series.

I think that as CG becomes more sophisticated and AI develops, there will be all sorts of new effects and even (for better or worse) personalization of Trek, with the originals as reference material. It may take a couple decades, or, as you say, more, but, well, it doesn’t matter “seeing” it anyway. This is about imagining it. As we all already do in our head canons.

…heck, I imagine one day you’ll be able to pick which Saavik you’ll want to use for Treks II, III, IV, and VI!

 

[Timo]

And yet we never see TOS ships in the movies let’s alone the 24th Century. And the moment they have the budget for it, they use new ships not renders of older ones.

The thing is, though, there's never the budget (either in dollars or hours) for it. Even PIC reuses DSC assets "out of time", simply because the makers run out of time. In this company, TOS movie ships appearing in TNG or DS9 is a feature rather than a bug, and Starfleet "really" keeps on operating ancient hulls till they rust out, just like the Soviet navy once did.

It’s a big shuttle? It’s fairly clear in the episode that that now green ship (from a touched up shot of a Skrreean ship from “Sanctuary”) is the one Noggra arrived on.

On the average, establishing shots of ships docked to DS9 pylons tend not to be related to the story at hand. Exceptions of course exist, but there's no real telling whether this jolly green giant should be counted as one of those.

It's perfectly fine as a Klingon ship, though. It's just that the story doesn't necessarily call for a Klingon ship at all. Noggra's humble little House might actually be better off without such an asset in this context. Although of course the story does need a way for them to get the hell out of Dodge with "Rodek" in tow.

(Though the Promellian makeup has been reused for other aliens, so maybe though the civilization went extinct, not all the people did.)

Supposedly the Feds got the extinction bit all wrong in the Yridian case, too. Perhaps it is customary to fake one's extinction in certain cases, such as in the middle/aftermath of a devastating genocidal war, or when one's culture derives sustenance from shady information sales?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

On the average, establishing shots of ships docked to DS9 pylons tend not to be related to the story at hand. Exceptions of course exist, but there's no real telling whether this jolly green giant should be counted as one of those.

It's perfectly fine as a Klingon ship, though. It's just that the story doesn't necessarily call for a Klingon ship at all. Noggra's humble little House might actually be better off without such an asset in this context. Although of course the story does need a way for them to get the hell out of Dodge with "Rodek" in tow.

There was an episode of TNG where Wesley Crusher was visiting the Enterprise-D. The dialogue states that he came by shuttle, but the establishing shot clearly shows stock footage of the Oberth class U.S.S. Cochrane. So there's precedence for the script not matching the VFX. But in this instance the VFX guys took footage of the Promellian Skreeean ship docked at the pylon and colored it green like a BoP. It was clearly meant to represent the ship Noggra arrived in, despite what the dialogue says.

As for the OP's question: As far as I'm concerned, the Federation fleet shots shown in DS9 should have been made up of Galaxies, Nebulas, Sovereigns, Intrepids, Prometheuses, Novas, and at least one Defiant as the hero ship. I.e., all of the Federation's newest and most powerful ships. And they would have been the template for any other fleets during the Dominion War. I wouldn't include the FC ships only because I've never liked those designs. I felt like the use of tons of Excelsiors and Mirandas made Starfleet look old and out-of-date, and made me feel like it was a wonder the Federation was even able to win the war with ships so old. Same with the Klingons. I felt there was far too much overuse of BoPs and K'T'ingas instead of coming up with newer designs besides just the Vor'cha.

 

[Timo]

There was an episode of TNG where Wesley Crusher was visiting the Enterprise-D. The dialogue states that he came by shuttle, but the establishing shot clearly shows stock footage of the Oberth class U.S.S. Cochrane. So there's precedence for the script not matching the VFX. But in this instance the VFX guys took footage of the Promellian Skreeean ship docked at the pylon and colored it green like a BoP. It was clearly meant to represent the ship Noggra arrived in, despite what the dialogue says.

Which is exactly why we can ignore the VFX and give precedence to dialogue. If we wish, that is. After all, there's zero contradiction in ignoring the VFX, but defying the dialogue is the very definition of contradicting.

(Of course, a Boeing 767 is a shuttle. As is a Fiat Ducato, when need be. A Galaxy probably seldom is, but an Oberth might well do nothing but.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

I rarely look at Klingon ships but found myself having fun doing so this time. Some more pics that I liked:

By Atolm on TrekBBS:
TMP g'Hom-Class Light Carrier -- I like the clunky look of this. Kinda great for the Klingons.
Huj Wa-Class Cruiser -- a Vor'cha era contemporary.
TMP ChonnaQ-Class -- an interesting mix of BoP and K't'inga techs in a different configuration.
TOS Auxiliary Cruiser -- an atypical hull design for the Klingons. (...then again: DSC.)
TOS Destroyer -- another atypical hull design, reminding me of Goroth's Ship.

I feel like some of these further fleshed out might have been marvelous among the Klingon battle fleets.

I sometimes wonder if the skinnier K't'inga ships were influenced by insectoid Hur'q design. Maybe the dunderheaded Klingons had been using ancient vessels for hundreds of years? Or not. It doesn’t due to underestimate people. Besides, skinnier is more space-y. And I think there's a terrifying aggressive elegance to the K't'inga and Kronos One that are very adultly Klingon:
Kronos One Drawing
Skinny K't'inga Era Ships

Are there any ships that have stood out to you?

 

[Dukhat]

Which is exactly why we can ignore the VFX and give precedence to dialogue. If we wish, that is. After all, there's zero contradiction in ignoring the VFX, but defying the dialogue is the very definition of contradicting.

You do that. I’ll go with what the VFX guys intended. I don’t care what the dialogue states, because there’s no reason why Noggra would have traveled all the way from Klingon space to Deep Space Nine in just a shuttle. Just like there’s no reason why Wesley would have needed a shuttle to fly from one starship to another. That’s what transporters are for. Sometimes dumb writing is just dumb writing.

 

[Timo]

But VFX is always just pretty pictures. And in DS9, people generally come and go without having a ship of their own. Especially Klingons, so that the one time they arrive in a bona fide Klingon ship makes everybody gasp.

Conflicting intent is easily sorted out, because intent doesn't matter. But if one can dump just the objectionable part of it, perhaps it's aesthetically more satisfactory or something?

Timo Saloniemi