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What is your opinion of season 3 as a whole?

I think both are to blame but chapel has a cruel streak that makes her kind of worse and even though my opinion is never popular here but I have seen other people call chapel mean names due to her cruel streak for most of season 3.
Cruel? No. Selfish? Probably. She very clearly stresses about the effect her behaviour has on Spock but Spock is a Vulcan and she also doesn't really understand Vulcan psychology that well (until possibly 4.5 Vulcans). Spock apologises to her because he thinks his behaviour was such that he drover her away. They just don't understand each other or each other's needs well enough to make a relationship work. They aren't in the same place.

If they are going on a 5 year mission next year, as a civilian, Chapel should really transfer off the ship. I wonder if they are just going to hand wave that away.
 
Remember in star trek discovery where it showed michael had 2 parents- mum and dad but the dad vanished and Michael's mum does all the work, builds the red angel suit , travel in time and passes it on to her daughter? the dad is completely erased even though if I remember both mum and dad were capable scientists.

yes streaming nu trek has been doing this women are more capable than men in everything, I feel it is now -way too obvious in SNW since SNW is more of an ensemble so this issue is magnified.
🥱🥱🥱
 
Remember in star trek discovery where it showed michael had 2 parents- mum and dad but the dad vanished and Michael's mum does all the work, builds the red angel suit , travel in time and passes it on to her daughter? the dad is completely erased even though if I remember both mum and dad were capable scientists.
Michael's father didn't vanish or "get erased." He was killed.
 
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Cruel? No. Selfish? Probably. She very clearly stresses about the effect her behaviour has on Spock but Spock is a Vulcan and she also doesn't really understand Vulcan psychology that well (until possibly 4.5 Vulcans). Spock apologises to her because he thinks his behaviour was such that he drover her away. They just don't understand each other or each other's needs well enough to make a relationship work. They aren't in the same place.

If they are going on a 5 year mission next year, as a civilian, Chapel should really transfer off the ship. I wonder if they are just going to hand wave that away.
Conflict amongst characters? I am shocked, shocked, I say. It's almost like people disagree on things, especially in romantic relationships.

But, I'm sure no one here has ever had struggles or needed a counselor for relationship. That never happens...
 
Michael's father didn't vanish or "get erased." He was killed.
potato potatoes:o

Is the same thing. the point is the eliminated the male character. erased him and put all the heroic aspect of the story to the woman. nothing is balanced.

Also what of the episode in season 1 where michael is shown to be mentally stronger than sarek in a vulcan mind fight.

3 times this human girl brought a full Vulcan down to his knees? I get sarek had been injured physically but still, Michael did not even show any resilience. she dominated sarek through out.

In TNG not even picard was shown to be able to match sarek mind.

See it is a pattern we have been seeing since streaming trek. SNW is just the straw that has now broken the Carmel's back.
 
Conflict amongst characters? I am shocked, shocked, I say. It's almost like people disagree on things, especially in romantic relationships.

But, I'm sure no one here has ever had struggles or needed a counselor for relationship. That never happens...

Shout out to Keiko O'Brien. Poor woman only ever seemed to get, I'm disagreeing with my husband stories.

I actually think Tom and B'Lanna had the most realistic relationship in Trek to date.

potato potatoes:o

Is the same thing. the point is the eliminated the male character. erased him and put all the heroic aspect of the story to the woman. nothing is balanced.
In NuTrek, they killed Kirk's father and had him whine about it for 3 movies while his mother didn't even feature. They then killed Spock's mother and had him spend time working through it with his father.

This wasn't balanced either because in both instances, the women were sidelined and erased, as you put it, yet you sing the praises of this part of the franchise.

Could it be, and I'm just spitballing here based on available evidence, that you are triggered to criticise only certain story elements by your subconscious (or conscious) sexism?

I think criticising story elements and characterisation is fine, and worthy of discussion, but there is a very strong element of men need to be men, women need to be faithful to one man whether they like it or not, and we need more men, and more manly men, preferably, in your criticism?
 
Shout out to Keiko O'Brien. Poor woman only ever seemed to get, I'm disagreeing with my husband stories.

I actually think Tom and B'Lanna had the most realistic relationship in Trek to date.


In NuTrek, they killed Kirk's father and had him whine about it for 3 movies while his mother didn't even feature. They then killed Spock's mother and had him spend time working through it with his father.

This wasn't balanced either because in both instances, the women were sidelined and erased, as you put it, yet you sing the praises of this part of the franchise.

Could it be, and I'm just spitballing here based on available evidence, that you are triggered to criticise only certain story elements by your subconscious (or conscious) sexism?

I think criticising story elements and characterisation is fine, and worthy of discussion, but there is a very strong element of men need to be men, women need to be faithful to one man whether they like it or not, and we need more men, and more manly men, preferably, in your criticism?
ehh. this is not true. Kirk never whined about his dad. in fact kirk never really brought it up at all. there were only vague references that kirk made to his dad. what are you talking about?

George is not even mention in STID and In Beyond Kirk tells Bones he has made it further than his dad or something like that. sorry I have not seen those movies in a while.
But if there is anything I know about Pine's Kirk. he never whined. he had too much swag to whine.

it was spock and pike that brought up george and they did it only once in the first film. I think you are confusing snw soap opera element with kelvin trek lack of it.:whistle:

Yes they killed spock mother which worked in the story and also it was balanced. kirk lost his dad, spock lost his mum. so both mother and father are killed off. if it was streaming nu trek, they will only get rid of the fathers.

Lasly you are wrong about me. I just do not like seeing a weird unrealistic pattern of behaviour in tv shows that I know is doing harm to it than helping. it is not sexism.

I am even some what kind of forgiving of michael since the character is meant to be special or like a chose one kind of thing character and she is an original new creation but when you have other established characters like Una/Chapel overdoing things to the determinant of the male characters just to show women can be just as good as men in everything. for me it is red flag and we see it pop up everywhere in snw.
 
Cruel? No. Selfish? Probably. She very clearly stresses about the effect her behaviour has on Spock but Spock is a Vulcan and she also doesn't really understand Vulcan psychology that well (until possibly 4.5 Vulcans). Spock apologises to her because he thinks his behaviour was such that he drover her away. They just don't understand each other or each other's needs well enough to make a relationship work. They aren't in the same place.

If they are going on a 5 year mission next year, as a civilian, Chapel should really transfer off the ship. I wonder if they are just going to hand wave that away.

Yes, I agree that Spock thinks that it's his fault. It's interesting though because they set Boimler up in Season 2 as being a big reason that Chapel drew back and wasn't prepared to try and make it work. She was told that she couldn't have Spock which seemed to combine with untreated PTSD which already had her frightened about relationships. They haven't come back to this in Season 3 but it appeared to be a very influential moment in Season 2 that altered the course of their relationship. For consistency, I wish that they had recapitlised on that in Season 3. I've seen a lot of commentary from people saying that they no longer like Chapel. Fair or not, people do seem to see her as cruel. A discussion of Boimler's conversation with Uhura and Erica would have been very helpful.

Chapel will clearly have a reversal of feelings and be very much back in that place in TOS. Who knows what Spock's feelings are by that point other than the fact that he won't go for it. There was an interesting thread a few years ago on here speculating as to whether Spock and Chapel could be together much later in the movie era. They had that odd deleted scene where she appears to have a very close relationship with Sarek. I personally hope that they do give the audience pay off and put them together in the post movie era. I suspect that they'll never comment on it either way.

I don't know if they're trying to set up La'an and Spock as understanding each other better. Ep 8 suggests that they're not happy with each other either but are more casual and less committed from the start so perhaps it's easier for things to be relaxed and end when needed.
 
I don't know if they're trying to set up La'an and Spock as understanding each other better. Ep 8 suggests that they're not happy with each other either but are more casual and less committed from the start so perhaps it's easier for things to be relaxed and end when needed.

they should just kill laan off and give spock pain and be done with. if they break up and go back to been friends. it will suck. spock and laan have been having sex post chapel break up. they are now too deep to back out of whatever stuff they have going on.

best they do, is kill her off and give spock heart arche. I think that will be better than them saying we were once sex buddies but not really in love.

this writers are truly insane in their characterization when you take into account everything. laan already had a thing for alternate kirk, maybe they even had sex too. so she has been with both kirk and spock. what does the slash K/S shipper have to say about this?

ahhh. remember the good ol days of JJ Abrams Kelvin Trek when Uhura was in her right mind to know it is better to just stick to one and the one you have more in common with than get involved with both :lol:

but but but jj trek is so bad and snw is a masterpiece. the maths is not mathing my friends.
 
ehh. this is not true. Kirk never whined about his dad. in fact kirk never really brought it up at all. there were only vague references that kirk made to his dad. what are you talking about?

George is not even mention in STID and In Beyond Kirk tells Bones he has made it further than his dad or something like that. sorry I have not seen those movies in a while.
But if there is anything I know about Pine's Kirk. he never whined. he had too much swag to whine.

it was spock and pike that brought up george and they did it only once in the first film. I think you are confusing snw soap opera element with kelvin trek lack of it.:whistle:

Yes they killed spock mother which worked in the story and also it was balanced. kirk lost his dad, spock lost his mum. so both mother and father are killed off. if it was streaming nu trek, they will only get rid of the fathers.

Lasly you are wrong about me. I just do not like seeing a weird unrealistic pattern of behaviour in tv shows that I know is doing harm to it than helping. it is not sexism.

I am even some what kind of forgiving of michael since the character is meant to be special or like a chose one kind of thing character and she is an original new creation but when you have other established characters like Una/Chapel overdoing things to the determinant of the male characters just to show women can be just as good as men in everything. for me it is red flag and we see it pop up everywhere in snw.
Lol. Yes perhaps you are right. It is more accurate to say that Kirk was whining on the inside and acting out as a genius level delinquent, even in command in STiD.

It's not Kirk's behaviour that I find problematic, other than the summary executions at the end, because he's on a character arc, it's the other characters endorsing and enabling his behaviour as positive and command-worthy. Spock saves the ship and the Earth. Kirk puts the ship in danger and rescues Pike. Kirk gets promoted 3 ranks over Spock.

My point is that the parental issues are NOT balanced just because one lost his dad and one lost his mom. One underlying theme of the movie is daddy issues. Kirk not having one, until he finds surrogate Daddy Pike, and Spock not having one he can relate to. That's the theme they chose, for the story they wanted to tell. That's not balanced.

In Discovery, they wanted to tell a mother/daughter story. It is no more or less balanced than NuTrek but you're only hating on one of them.

I don't think Michael is a good character. I find her her prone to emotional swings and unprofessional while on duty. She's messed up and the way so many people treat her behaviour as command-worthy is equally troubling. Put her outside Starfleet and she works fine for me.

Making Tilly a command officer to show her growth was also a terrible idea. She's a terrible command officer. I loved her so much as an homage to Trek's geeky female fans everywhere and they went weird on me.

But saying Trek treats women as more accomplished than men is silly. On average men are stronger and fitter, while women are more intelligent and emotionally stable but averages don't mean we can't have characters who are exceptional. Personally, I would rather each Trek series just had one or two exceptional characters and just made the rest competent.

As for Una, she's very much in a supporting role to Pike. I can't think of a single episode where she was shown to outshine or usurp him. She's stronger and fitter than him,
because she's an alien but she didn't even get an episode focus in season 3.

As for Chapel, she just has a scientifc skill set that lends itself to stories. Spock used to stray outside his areas of expertise a lot and now someone qualified can do it. IMO the places where they went wrong is seemingly have her stand in for M'Benga when she's not a doctor, and giving her a martial arts drug.

Don't listen to Mike Hesgeth. The whole world, including the US military think he's a numpty.
 
Yes, I agree that Spock thinks that it's his fault. It's interesting though because they set Boimler up in Season 2 as being a big reason that Chapel drew back and wasn't prepared to try and make it work. She was told that she couldn't have Spock which seemed to combine with untreated PTSD which already had her frightened about relationships. They haven't come back to this in Season 3 but it appeared to be a very influential moment in Season 2 that altered the course of their relationship. For consistency, I wish that they had recapitlised on that in Season 3. I've seen a lot of commentary from people saying that they no longer like Chapel. Fair or not, people do seem to see her as cruel. A discussion of Boimler's conversation with Uhura and Erica would have been very helpful.

Chapel will clearly have a reversal of feelings and be very much back in that place in TOS. Who knows what Spock's feelings are by that point other than the fact that he won't go for it. There was an interesting thread a few years ago on here speculating as to whether Spock and Chapel could be together much later in the movie era. They had that odd deleted scene where she appears to have a very close relationship with Sarek. I personally hope that they do give the audience pay off and put them together in the post movie era. I suspect that they'll never comment on it either way.

I don't know if they're trying to set up La'an and Spock as understanding each other better. Ep 8 suggests that they're not happy with each other either but are more casual and less committed from the start so perhaps it's easier for things to be relaxed and end when needed.
I agree with this 100%. Boimler's comments were the straw that broke the camel's back.

There is a part of me wondering if their relationship settles down to a closer one, if not publicly renowned after his epiphany in TMP. He does eventually marry Saavik, but I'm not sure what year that happens.

It's one reason why I'd be more interested in Phase II than Year One.
 
I agree with this 100%. Boimler's comments were the straw that broke the camel's back.

There is a part of me wondering if their relationship settles down to a closer one, if not publicly renowned after his epiphany in TMP. He does eventually marry Saavik, but I'm not sure what year that happens.

It's one reason why I'd be more interested in Phase II than Year One.

Sadly that seemed to be a moment of different writers and season inconsistency. This season Boimler isn't mentioned but he was SO important in Season 2.

He married Saavik in the books but I'm quite sure we never found out whether he married at all or who that might be to on the screen. In TNG we heard that Picard attended the wedding of Sarek's son but given that Sarek has children popping out the woodwork this could be anyone! It could certainly be a child of Perrin and Sarek. Other than Saavik, the only woman we had a hint that Spock was close to in the movie era was Chapel with her mysteriously close relationship with Sarek where he took her calls at home. It could be that Spock and Chapel found their timing after TMP. I doubt that was the intention when the movies were made (okay, pretty much sure that wasn't the intention) but SNW has re-written everything we knew about them. Getting together a few years after TOS seems much more likely given we know that they were passionate and Spock was ready for commitment to her once.

Yes I completely agree. Let's do the last few years of Kirk's TOS or their second five year mission. It would give them so much more freedom. Year One will essentially be a continuation on SNW with only half the case. It will miss Anson Mount who is fabulous! I would like to see the characters be able to grow a little rather than move in such a pre-determined direction. Plus Spock Chapel tension would be fine (in the background) as she was in TMP. Maybe T'Pring could make a return appearance on the arm of Stonn. Gia and her whole family were amazing - so, so funny.
 
they should just kill laan off and give spock pain and be done with. if they break up and go back to been friends. it will suck. spock and laan have been having sex post chapel break up. they are now too deep to back out of whatever stuff they have going on.

best they do, is kill her off and give spock heart arche. I think that will be better than them saying we were once sex buddies but not really in love.

this writers are truly insane in their characterization when you take into account everything. laan already had a thing for alternate kirk, maybe they even had sex too. so she has been with both kirk and spock. what does the slash K/S shipper have to say about this?

ahhh. remember the good ol days of JJ Abrams Kelvin Trek when Uhura was in her right mind to know it is better to just stick to one and the one you have more in common with than get involved with both :lol:

but but but jj trek is so bad and snw is a masterpiece. the maths is not mathing my friends.

Oh please no! La'an deserves so much better than being killed off for Spock's character growth or being killed at all. For what it's worth, I don't think that they will do this. We've established that they start and end relationships quickly so I doubt that they'll suddenly decide that La'an and Spock need to stick. They've really hit us over the head with the idea that they're casual and established that La'an's bot too happy. They were in much deeper with Chapel and they backed out of it. I'm sure they'll feel free to back out of La'an as well.

Christina Chong and Ethan Peck have said that Spock's transition to Leonard Nimoy's Spock is happening in Season 4. Chong is in Season 4 and 5 so La'an is going to live until at least the end of the series. I doubt they'll kill her slowly because they did this with Batel. At the end of Season 1 we saw the alternate timeline with La'an serving as Kirk's first officer. Spock was still Nimoy's logical Spock so it happens without La'an appearing to have a role.

The showrunners are keen on the idea that this relationship is casual but mature and Spock is growing. They've said it's different than Pike and Batel (committed) and Spock and Chapel. Experiencing something casual and returning to being friends fits the bill more than falling in love and then killing La'an. In the modern era, I think that they'll see a relationship starting and ending in a casual way as reflecting many real life relationships rather than something inherently bad. Very mature and all that. I think if she was meant to be his desperate love and responsible for his change to logic then we would see different language from the characters, show runners and actors.

I will be so disappointed if La'an gets Batel's storyline or dies some other way and we see this being the catalyst for Spock. It needs to be something more fundamental than a relationship. I have my fingers crossed that we see Sarek and Sybok return as key drivers of this change.
 
No character deserves anything. They're fiction.

I don't agree. I think that characters represent real dynamics, gender expectations, political environments and experiences. They're created from our own understanding of how the world should be and what we expect as people. The original Chapel deserved much better than only handing a tray to McCoy. Deanna Troi deserved better than becoming emotional every two seconds having few genuine skills when her male counterparts were experts. Audiences wouldn't accept that treatment of either character today. A strong female character like La'an deserves her opportunity to embrace her potential and shine. Being killed off to suit the character development of a male would be very poor quality writing. I don't think that they'll do this but I expect many would not be impressed.
 
I don't agree. I think that characters represent real dynamics, gender expectations, political environments and experiences. They're created from our own understanding of how the world should be and what we expect as people. The original Chapel deserved much better than only handing a tray to McCoy. Deanna Troi deserved better than becoming emotional every two seconds having few genuine skills when her male counterparts were experts. Audiences wouldn't accept that treatment of either character today. A strong female character like La'an deserves her opportunity to embrace her potential and shine. Being killed off to suit the character development of a male would be very poor quality writing. I don't think that they'll do this but I expect many would not be impressed.
You state this well but I don't agree and have met few writers who would.
 
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