What is your opinion of season 3 as a whole?

[Tallguy]

I know people bluffed when I said nurse does more than doctor but what of scotty too? why is Pelia always correcting him and why is he shown incompetent to her?

"Bluffed?" People gave you NUMEROUS examples from real life. I'm sorry you don't know more capable women. You seem to be missing out. (I'm married to a former paratrooper.)

You're missing the distinction between "knowing more" and "doing more". If you're in the hospital and you see your doctor more than your nurse? I'd expect you're about to die? And even then...

Now if Chapel and M'Benga are working on the same medical task, I'd expect Joey to win out. He's supposed to be the more experienced one. Not a hard and fast rule, of course. My boss has been known to be wrong from time to time.

Scott and Pelia: Unlike M'Benga and Chapel they are doing the same job and we are given to believe that Pelia is more experienced at it. Also she's Scott's superior officer. (I bet he does more "actual work" than Pelia too.)

I'm also sorry that you think you cannot be wrong without being incompetent. This sounds rough. That's OK. I'm trying to teach my 15 year old the same lesson.

Now if memory serves Pelia insisted on doing additional checks on the whoseywhatsits at the Space Gas Station in Lost in Translation against Chin-Riley's explicit orders. And Pelia was right. And Numero Una was wrong. Is Una incompetent?

 

[Ovation]

Not in Lights of Zetar of course. He was a moron in that one.

That is my least favourite of all the TOS episodes. Though not just because of Scotty.

As for the general nonsense about the “emasculation” of Trek by SNW (Season 3 and overall) espoused in the past few pages of posts, it’s, well, nonsense. Errant nonsense, of course.

 

[ILovePuppies]

I've been so disappointed in this season. I loved season 1 and 2 and this was such a slide. I liked Lenses, Sehlat and Hegemony Part 2, meh was Shuttle to K, Erica's episode and Wedding Bell Blues and hated was the Holodeck episode, What is StarFleet, 4.5 Vulcans and the finale.

I felt like I was watching SuperMario Kart. All the characters were present but they all switched places / personalities. Spock too Kirk's Lothario ways, Kirk took Spock's monogamy and commitment, Erica took La'an's PTSD, La'an took Chapel's Spock attraction, Chapel gained an unkind personality and Una lost any personality.

There was a strange disconnect with Season 1 and 2 as though they were trying to throw it all out the airlock and start again. I'm nervous to say it given the rest of this thread, but Spock and La'an were a big problem here for me. They spent 1.5 seasons building Spock's engagement with T'Pring and his growing feelings for Chapel and then it was just gone. He appears to have amnesia and doesn't remember a finacee. Yes, they were on a break but that's a very weak excuse for an engaged man and a huge red flag of selfishness in real life. He didn't even pause to think about how starting another relationship (causal thing, friends with benefits, sex buddies - I'm not totally sure what it is) would fit into his commitment to T'Pring and his connection to his Vulcan identity and family. This his third relationship in a un broken chain while he's engaged. Three relationships in three years is not unusal but doing it in an unbroken chain while you're engaged is very unusual. That's a low thing to do and well out of character for Spock. The La'an thing was so out of nowhere.

He was meant to be in love with Chapel and he moved on two episodes later. Yes, there was a bit of time in universe but very little. If he feels emotions deeply then he is not going to get over being in love with her in a few weeks. Certainly not because he found sensual dancing irresistible and thought La'an was hot. I know that Spock is a younger version here but he still needs to be Spock. In Season 2 and he avoided Chapel for 6 months because he was engaged and knew his growing feelings were inappropriate. He's demonstrated that this is who is regardless of his age so this is out of character.

Out of universe, they've done romance with Spock non stop. They need to find new ways to develop his character and find other attributes. Leadership, devotion to science, commitment to the federation, being a Vulcan - all good things to develop Spock other than romance. They started to over do it in the second half of season 2 and La'an was one massive relationship too far. Give Ethan another way to play Spock and give the audience another side of him.

Pike also had nothing but romance really. His focus was almost exclusively on Batel. We didn't see much of Pike which was a real shame. I didn't care for him in 4.5 Vulcans - he played a really weird conehead like Vulcan. I loved him in Charades so he's capable, this just didn't work for me. He was an amazing captain in Season 1 and made challenging moral choices. More of that.

Erica started strong with PTSD but it was let go when it got too hard. She was back at the helm and there was no further problems. She was also punished for lying about information and putting the ship at risk. Uhura did the same thing and was all but congratulated. Weird double standards. I would have liked the PTSD to be a much bigger deal. La'an, Chapel and Erica have all had PTSD now and it's gone nowhere. I at least expected the death of the Gorn to be an important point of development where she confronted trigger happy La'an but nothing.

Chapel and La'an were both let down with nothing but romance stories. The showrunners wanted to give something good to La'an to make her happy apparently. It's odd because I thought that 4.5 Vulcans established that she wasn't happy. She complained about the socks, Una warned her about relationships sneaking up (hardly positive) and compared La'an's disinterest to her excitment about Doug. I thought we were meant to realise that Spock is easy and safe but that's not making La'an happy. She wants Kirk and the excitement and passion he brings. I would have liked to see La'an get a strong story leading Star Fleet to defeat the Gorn after surviving awful Gorn torture and thereby overcoming her doubts about her heritage. Instead she got mostly casual sex, really inappropriate snipiness with Chapel and confirmation from Spock that she's aggressive and paranoid to the core - letdown. Chapel somehow became an actual archaeologist instead of a medical archaeologist. She got 10 minutes of being a leader and spent the rest of the season holding Roger's bag or being utterly insensitive to Spock's feelings.

We seem to be further away from TOS in terms of Spock and Chapel. I think that he always had feelings for her given his breakdown in the Naked Now. He was deeply affected by her declaration and sobbed out that it was 'too late.' He was very tender in the Amok Time. I know it's controversial, but I assume the showrunners also believe that Spock is in love with her in TOS or wouldn't have gone down this path. In SNW, they seem friendly with Chapel fully in love with Korby and Spock feeling who knows what. They have a bit of work to get Chapel back in love with Spock and to emphaise that Spock has never gotton over her. La'an seems like a complication but the showrunners said that they don't want to take a straight path to their relationship in TOS so I suppose we have to trust that they'll bring both characters back to having strong feelings for each other.

This season has received the first negative reviews. The show runners may pretend not the care but they wouldn't send out the episodes for review and comment on it in Comic Con if they didn't care. Paramount is in a messy place and most of NuTrek has been cancelled. If they want a shot at Year One then season 4 has to be outstanding, bring positive reviews and be very popular. It's hard when it's already been filmed but they could still cut things. I hope that they move any Spock / La'an breakup scene to Episode 1 and move Peck's Spock away from romance in Season 4. Return to the slow burn that he had with Chapel in season 1 and reconnect him with T'Pring if they must. More Pike and more Erica!

 

[gabby1701]

Chapel somehow became an actual archaeologist instead of a medical archaeologist. She got 10 minutes of being a leader and spent the rest of the season holding Roger's bag or being utterly insensitive to Spock's feelings.

We seem to be further away from TOS in terms of Spock and Chapel. I think that he always had feelings for her given his breakdown in the Naked Now. He was deeply affected by her declaration and sobbed out that it was 'too late.' He was very tender in the Amok Time. I know it's controversial, but I assume the showrunners also believe that Spock is in love with her in TOS or wouldn't have gone down this path. In SNW, they seem friendly with Chapel fully in love with Korby and Spock feeling who knows what. They have a bit of work to get Chapel back in love with Spock and to emphaise that Spock has never gotton over her. La'an seems like a complication but the showrunners said that they don't want to take a straight path to their relationship in TOS so I suppose we have to trust that they'll bring both characters back to having strong feelings for each other.

This season has received the first negative reviews. The show runners may pretend not the care but they wouldn't send out the episodes for review and comment on it in Comic Con if they didn't care. Paramount is in a messy place and most of NuTrek has been cancelled. If they want a shot at Year One then season 4 has to be outstanding, bring positive reviews and be very popular. It's hard when it's already been filmed but they could still cut things. I hope that they move any Spock / La'an breakup scene to Episode 1 and move Peck's Spock away from romance in Season 4. Return to the slow burn that he had with Chapel in season 1 and reconnect him with T'Pring if they must. More Pike and more Erica!

she was been insensitive to spock's feelings because in TOS Spock was sort of that way to her feelings. its the reverse writing and yeah it sucks. the show needs new writers.

I do not think I need to dig deeper into the romance thing but yes it is has been critically panned all across the board fan, critics, you.

I have this weird feeling that we will never see tpring again and. if we never see tpring in snw again that would be fine and makes her appearance in amok time solid.

they cannot beat the dead horse of spock and chapel again, the slow burn has been exhausted in season 1-2 that did the characters no favours, they should never even have tried it especially when SNW chapel is running around the show with a different personality than we know her.

I think the writers must have gotten the memo that fans hate the romance focus on the show and loathe how they reimagined spock/chapel so they may just stick to spock/laan. have laan die, which makes spock go full vulcan. have chapel wanting him back but spock has moved on and his heart is or was with laan.

I do agree with you that they also made chapel somewhat unlikeable or as you said unkind, and i said earlier that they did assassinate her character and some here said I was just hating.

Also I do not think the show runners felt spock was in love with chapel in TOS, if they believed it they would not have re-imagined the character to such an extent in SNW.

in fact I would argue the show runner felt chapel was too pathetic in TOS for a guy like spock to be in love with her that is why they completely changed the character and turned her into the super over powered kick ass nurse chick.

Also, I think if we should see a next slow burn it should be with the girl from the side of paradise at least that is easy to believe because Lelia was actually very charming in TOS than Chapel who basically was like Gunther from Friends.

but more importantly thank you for pointing out how chapel was doing actual archeology. I brought this up earlier and people defended the writing trying to make excuses and again saying I was just hating on the show. chapel does more than the doctor and more achelogy than korby, who is meant to be her mentor?

And this show is meant to be the best written new trek show of the 2000s? One thing about star trek is that the series always tended to stress the job of each characters especially, it was the reason they wore different colors. In SNW none of that works here since most of the female dominated crew can also do different jobs.

Sulu from Kelvin Trek- the first time we meet him showed he was not even perfect as the pilot, he made errors but he did prove himself and stayed within his job which was to pilot the ship and do fence fight.

but chapel in snw can do doctorial-medicine, nursing, fight scenes and archaeology? lol.

 

[fireproof78]

And this show is meant to be the best written new trek show of the 2000s?

Star Trek has never been the best written anything so if that's the standard then disappoinment is inevitable.

but chapel in snw can do doctorial-medicine, nursing, fight scenes and archaeology? lol.

Tom. Paris needed inspiration somewhere. Same with Picard.

 

[Firebird]

One thing about star trek is that the series always tended to stress the job of each characters especially, it was the reason they wore different colors. In SNW none of that works here since most of the female dominated crew can also do different jobs.

Oh, horrors - a ship full of competent, well-trained and cross-trained lady officers that can actually do their jobs? What is this world coming to with all that suffrage!

Seriously, you’re just spouting off more misogynist bullshit with no factual or practical basis.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, horrors - a ship full of competent, well-trained and cross-trained lady officers that can actually do their jobs? What is this world coming to with all that suffrage!

Seriously, you’re just spouting off more misogynist bullshit with no factual or practical basis.

And ignoring what Star Trek has done multiple times in the past; if you're in the main credits you get to call the shots.

Voyager: Tom is a commando leader, field medic, historian, and engineer as the plot calls for it. Harry has to tell a superior officer what to do in Red Alert.

TNG: Picard and Crusher are sent on a infiltration mission with no previous intelligence training indicated.

Nevermind the absurdity of sending the captain, first officer, and chief medical officer on away missions.

But, it's fiction so fans roll with it. Or use to. Now it's a black mark if people don't stay in their lane.

PSA voice: "Main characters, know your place!"

 

[Frightscape One]

Cross training officers on a starship not only has been shown many times throughout the franchise, but makes perfect sense. (Look at Chekov, for example. He worked almost every department at one time or another.)

The one series that should have done this the most is VOYAGER, since they had no one to replace them when crew members get killed. The Doctor, for example, should have had at least 3 or 4 other people besides Kes (and later Tom) as part of his staff. At the very least, on hand as staff when disasters happen.

They definitely should have had everyone be cross-trained in engineering, given how many of that staff were killed during the show's run. (Kurt Bendera, Frank Darwin, Michael Jonas, Hogan, transporter operator in "WARLORD", 3 unnamed in "LIVING WITNESS", Joe Carey, and probably others. Plus, Seska left.)

 

[Zombie Cheerleader]

but chapel in snw can do doctorial-medicine, nursing, fight scenes and archaeology? lol.

Korby is “the Pasteur of archeological medicine”. Chapel was his student. That’s from TOS. Do the math. She was also said to be involved in biomedical research. So even in TOS more than a standard nurse.
Yeah, she can do fight scenes. So what. She hasn’t been shown to be Emma Peel or Natasha Romanova, though. Just someone who’s resourceful. How many fights has she been in anyways?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I'd imagine Starfleet would try to recruit multitalented people on purpose because it's always wise to have a backup plan in case all your whatever specialists get injured. There'd be plenty of aptitude testing in education as well, so by the time they reach recruitment age, people would have a pretty good idea what their strengths and weaknesses are.

People who didn't diversify their skillset would be employed in less risky jobs/locations. Many would not be in Starfleet or interstellar service.

 

[fireproof78]

People who didn't diversify their skillset would be employed in less risky jobs/locations. Many would not be in Starfleet or interstellar service.

Or like Picard in Tapestry.

Look at Chekov, for example. He worked almost every department at one time or another.)

Excellent example. He's usually tasked with Spock's station. I guess Chekov is one upping Spock...

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Picard may have known how to do a variety of things, but didn't excel at them or distinguish himself by taking risks.

 

[gabby1701]

I'd imagine Starfleet would try to recruit multitalented people on purpose because it's always wise to have a backup plan in case all your whatever specialists get injured. There'd be plenty of aptitude testing in education as well, so by the time they reach recruitment age, people would have a pretty good idea what their strengths and weaknesses are.

People who didn't diversify their skillset would be employed in less risky jobs/locations. Many would not be in Starfleet or interstellar service.

multi talented people in fine. Sulu both from TOS and Kelvin is multi talented.

Uhura from TOS was shown to be good at her job as a linguist, impressive playing a vulcan lyre and she had some combat moments in the mirror mirror episode and search for spock film.

I think Jim Kirk as a man is just blessed with many things. charm, leadership, babe magnet, intelligence. Kirk I would say was a perfect captain even more than Picard.

But this is a different ball game when a nurse knows more than the medical doctor or just as much or even more than her archaeology finance.

I have used a buffy reference. imagine if buffy, a slayer had more knowledge than her watcher all the time. it just cant or wont work as it will defeat the whole purpose of why a slayer needs a watcher.

you cannot have a character so talented or good in everything where you begin to wonder why the other characters are needed even when they are the ones with the official job tittle.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Is she a quick study, perhaps? A polymath?

 

[Tallguy]

Uhura from TOS was shown to be good at her job as a linguist, impressive playing a vulcan lyre and she had some combat moments in the mirror mirror episode and search for spock film.

Occasionally repaired the equipment on the bridge, could take over navigation and helm, beat up a combat thrall in Gamesters of Triskelion...

But this is a different ball game when a nurse knows more than the medical doctor or just as much or even more than her archaeology finance.

When has she been shown to know MORE?

But also: Her intro in What Are Little Girls Made Of? has always indicated that she's slumming it in sickbay. She gets her M.D. in about two years after the original FYM.

 

[Pauln6]

Experience. She's the chief engineer.

Trek has largely been male dominated, even the vaunted TNG. It's a silly number games that reduce everything to a statistic rather than enjoying the show.

It's tragic really, but inevitable I guess. In today's day and age everything must be pathologized, labeled and quantified as a disorder or category rather than taken at face value.

I have never really thought it was about exact numbers as opposed to a demonstration of intent. Where you have an obvious, consistent imbalance, that sends a message.

When DS9 picked a female first officer and chief scientist, this was a step that led to the female captain and engineer but if you strip out the top layer, Trek was quite poor at tier 2 and tier 3 representation. The writers could sustain the intent only so much.

I think the gender critical criticisms of Discovery and SNW are that they lack a 'traditional' male Starfleet character among the regular crew. Lorca was a bad boy, Pike was popular but temporary, Saru is an alien pacifist, and Rhys and Bryce have less definition as characters than Uhura did. Maybe if one of them had been at the conn, it might have been viewed differently.

I think that is probably not really justified as far as SNW goes, possibly some think so due to the male leads not playing the field and being unlucky in love. I think Mount stepped back in season 2 due to paternity leave and the relationship arc of season 3 meant he was diluted in his command role but otherwise the gender divide is fairly even. The perception for some might differ because there are only 2 prominent male characters on the bridge regularly.

 

[The Gatekeeper]

In real the world of NASA the gender ratio is 65% male and 35% male.

In SNW the gender ratio is 66% female and 33% female.

You really don't proofread before posting, do you?

Nah, don't bother answering. It's very clear you don't. You really should though, if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[gabby1701]

I have never really thought it was about exact numbers as opposed to a demonstration of intent. Where you have an obvious, consistent imbalance, that sends a message.

When DS9 picked a female first officer and chief scientist, this was a step that led to the female captain and engineer but if you strip out the top layer, Trek was quite poor at tier 2 and tier 3 representation. The writers could sustain the intent only so much.

I think the gender critical criticisms of Discovery and SNW are that they lack a 'traditional' male Starfleet character among the regular crew. Lorca was a bad boy, Pike was popular but temporary, Saru is an alien pacifist, and Rhys and Bryce have less definition as characters than Uhura did. Maybe if one of them had been at the conn, it might have been viewed differently.

I think that is probably not really justified as far as SNW goes, possibly some think so due to the male leads not playing the field and being unlucky in love. I think Mount stepped back in season 2 due to paternity leave and the relationship arc of season 3 meant he was diluted in his command role but otherwise the gender divide is fairly even. The perception for some might differ because there are only 2 prominent male characters on the bridge regularly.

Remember in star trek discovery where it showed michael had 2 parents- mum and dad but the dad vanished and Michael's mum does all the work, builds the red angel suit , travel in time and passes it on to her daughter? the dad is completely erased even though if I remember both mum and dad were capable scientists.

yes streaming nu trek has been doing this women are more capable than men in everything, I feel it is now -way too obvious in SNW since SNW is more of an ensemble so this issue is magnified.

 

[Pauln6]

It is interesting to look at the different takes on the evolution of the Chapel/Spock relationship.

I rather view them as people who care for each other but on some level they understand that they just aren't right for each other, or at least the extra ingredients needed to cement the relationship are never in the right place at the right time.

I disagree that either one is to blame, though. Their stars are just not aligned. I would have been interested to see some interaction in TMP or STIV though.

 

[gabby1701]

It is interesting to look at the different takes on the evolution of the Chapel/Spock relationship.

I rather view them as people who care for each other but on some level they understand that they just aren't right for each other, or at least the extra ingredients needed to cement the relationship are never in the right place at the right time.

I disagree that either one is to blame, though. Their stars are just not aligned. I would have been interested to see some interaction in TMP or STIV though.

I think both are to blame but chapel has a cruel streak that makes her kind of worse and even though my opinion is never popular here but I have seen other people call chapel mean names due to her cruel streak for most of season 3.