What is your biggest gripe about fan films.

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's especially tricky with fan scripts because, let's face it, how many of the writers have a contract? What constitutes work-for-hire when it's a verbal agreement to do work? And if the writer balks and the producers decide to go ahead, what recourse is there for the writer? A lawsuit to stop something that can't make money anyway?

Exactly so.

If you want to successfully create anything beyond the simplest movie there is no substitute for the willingness and tempermental ability to collaborate. Standing on one's "artistic integrity" in these situations is just a ticket to acquiring a resentment to fuel a tedious bar room rant at some point in the future. And it presupposes, BTW, that the writer is the absolute best judge of what works and doesn't work in a script.

Now, most every writer I know is reasonably (usually unreasonably) protective of their work and to a great degree that is part of their job in these situations. It is certainly frustrating to have other people who've not focused their energies on writing to any serious extent decide that it's easy to "fix" problems in a story. And when things go awry and plans fall apart during production, it's probably useful to have someone in the mix who advocates for the story (directors may not always agree. C'est la guerre).

But despite my endless admiration for the likes of Harlan Ellison, I'd say that unless you're a certified genius who's never made a mistake in judgment and is a complete master of every aspect of filmmaking such that you can solve all of the emergent production problems successfully while advocating for your work, then you're not doing the production or yourself any favors by issuing toothless ultimatums. They are, bluntly, better off with someone else's mediocre script and you're better off vanity publishing your unproduced genius on the Internet where people can bask in its brilliance and some other website can issue you an "award" to post on your home page.

DS9Sega - yeah, it was the sickbay scene. It was there to begin with because they wanted to build a sickbay set, and when it became clear that they couldn't get to it we had to rework it - IOW, written to the specifications of the producers and rewritten to satisfy the realities of production. You can't call it hack work because hacks get paid.

 

[Maurice]

DS9Sega - yeah, it was the sickbay scene. It was there to begin with because they wanted to build a sickbay set, and when it became clear that they couldn't get to it we had to rework it - IOW, written to the specifications of the producers and rewritten to satisfy the realities of production. You can't call it hack work because hacks get paid.

I suspected that was the one. I recalled that there was a Sickbay swing set planned, and wrote on of the "Atlantis" script scenes to take place in it, with the idea that the conversation could be moved into the corridor outside sickbay if the set fell through (so to speak).

 

[BillJ]

Two things...

One is the lack of any real character growth... I'm mainly looking at you 'New Voyages'. There's a lot of fertile ground to explore and yet we keep getting the same old SFX soup.

The other is the adolescent way gay relationships are handled... once again I'm mainly looking at you 'New Voyages'. Instead of making it casual and feel normal, it's made to be a dry-humping spectacle. Though I got to tell you I don't really care for relationship drama in Star Trek.

I'd feel the same way whether it was your group or Paramount making the episodes. While your production is top notch in set construction and visual effects, it definitely lacks in writing, acting and directing. I just feel that New Voyages/Phase II has been one missed opportunity after another. The 5 year mission is winding down and we know all sorts of things change in the Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship and yet we see you guys trumpeting 'Phase II' nacelles and yet another rehash of an un-produced script. You seem more interested in the name drop, than the actual content of a any given script.

Sorry if those are cheap potshots. But it's how I feel about your production.

BillJ, I think you lack some specifics on what you'd like to see. At least I'm having a hard time knowing what I can do to make our episodes better. I'm reading "lack of character growth" and "don't like the way the gay relationship was handled," and "it lacks in writing, acting, and directing," and "missed opportunities," and "you are disinterested in script content."

From a character growth standpoint, we're kind of limited. We need to have our characters be able to be in their TMP positions when our series is completed, so the character arcs are largely locked in. On the other hand, in "To Serve All My Days' in order to tell a compelling story about Chekov--the kind of story he never got--we had D.C. Fontana write a fine story--one where Chekov dies at the end. He undergoes amazing growth and self awareness in that episode. (And, of course, we got endless grief for killing off the character of Chekov: "How dare we change what we know must happen in the Trek universe!?") Your notion that D.C. Fontana was disintested in her script content seems a little insulting. And I'm confident that David Gerrold would be insulted at the notion that he's disinterested in his script's content. Did you really mean that? Or did you mean that I'm disinterested in our scripts' content--or did you mean James?

Of course, it's possible to tell dramatic stories even when the characters' ultimate outcome is already known. Otherwise it would be impossible to do a mini-series about John Adams or movies about General Patton or about Jesus for that matter. But we have our work cut out for us when our viewers are such "experts" (perceived if not actual) on the characters.

We do indeed need to see the causes of the changes in the Spock/McCoy/Kirk relationship that manifest themselves in TMP. But those changes haven't taken place in the few episodes we've made so far. The relationship-shattering event isn't scheduled to be shown for several more episodes. In the meantime, there are lots of stories to tell in our little series.

I think our Nebula and Hugo award nominations last year for "World Enough and Time" shouldn't be so easily dismissed. I've heard more than once "best episode ever out of ay Trek series ever." I don't know about that; those comments might be overly generous. But I do know that we were indeed nominated for a Nebula and a Hugo. The WSFS membership seems to have a different perception of our productions than you do.

So, what would you do differently to get a Nebula, a Hugo, or more popularity and respect with a budget of $0.00? Other than "do everything better," you seem short on specifics of what you would do differently.

Greg, thanks for taking the time to answer my comments.

I think the problem is where you seem to think you're locked down in regards to character arcs, I see a great deal of opportunity. Especially in regards to Kirk, Spock and McCoy. They're the best of friends during the 5 year mission and yet something, somewhere along the way seems to drive them in different directions. What caused Spock to seek Kolinahr? What caused McCoy to leave Starfleet? What caused Kirk to give up the Enterprise?

Plus I would love to just see a straight episode. An episode that isn't so dependent on the flash factor. A simple, straight forward story with nothing more than the Enterprise swinging into and leaving orbit as special effects.

And I never said 'do everything better', I actually complimented the set construction and special effects. My complaints are with the writing (as bland as anything ever presented in Modern Trek) and the acting/directing which I believe go hand-in-hand (actors are very stilted).

A little more specific?

EDIT: And don't try so hard to pat yourself on the back... you're liable to sprain something.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Greg, thanks for taking the time to answer my comments.

I think the problem is where you seem to think you're locked down in regards to character arcs, I see a great deal of opportunity. Especially in regards to Kirk, Spock and McCoy. They're the best of friends during the 5 year mission and yet something, somewhere along the way seems to drive them in different directions. What caused Spock to seek Kolinahr? What caused McCoy to leave Starfleet? What caused Kirk to give up the Enterprise?

Plus I would love to just see a straight episode. An episode that isn't so dependent on the flash factor. A simple, straight forward story with nothing more than the Enterprise swinging into and leaving orbit as special effects.

And I never said 'do everything better', I actually complimented the set construction and special effects. My complaints are with the writing (as bland as anything ever presented in Modern Trek) and the acting/directing which I believe go hand-in-hand (actors are very stilted).

A little more specific?

EDIT: And don't try so hard to pat yourself on the back... you're liable to sprain something.

Yes, that's a little more specific. Thank you. These are some thoughts I can indeed address.

First, I'm glad that you agree with me that we need to show how we get our three major characters into their TMP situations. I think you and I only differ as to when we should show this break-up in the Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship. As I alluded to, there is a single, horrendous event that causes McCoy to leave Starfleet, causes Kirk to give up his command to take a desk job, and causes Spock to leave to embark on his Kohlinar task. Where you and I differ is that you would seem to want to see some kind of gradual eroding or changing of their relationship over the course of numerous Phase II episodes--starting with, well, you would have started that change already, I guess. However, we've decided that the event that precipitates this change in our characters' relationships is not an event that will unfold gradually over the next a dozen or so Phase II episodes. Instead, it will probably happen suddenly and horrifically. And we are planning on showing it towards the end of our series--not in our first five episodes. After all, once McCoy leaves Starfleet, Kirk takes some time off and then becomes Chief of Starfleet Operations, Spock heads off to Vulcan, and Decker gets command of the Enterprise, it would be hard for us to do Star Trek Phase II stories. (It would be some other Star Trek series--maybe even a very exciting and interesting one--but probably not one involving the Enterprise as it sits in drydock being overhauled. That would be Star Trek: Drydock. I can hear Decker's voiceover now: "These are the repairs of the Starship Enterprise--its three-year refit....") Since we've got plenty of exciting Phase II stories that need to be told before our three major characters are suddenly shattered apart and go their separate ways for a time, we'll put off that relationship change until the end of our series.

In the meantime, until we reach that interesting relationship-changing event, we do indeed have plenty of other opportunities for character devlopement. We have introduced Peter Kirk (the Captain's nephew) as a series regular. This allows us to explore a paternal side of Kirk that we only really got to see in "Charlie X." We have introduced Lieutenant Xon--so now Spock has somone to commissurate with on Vulcan matters--which is not something we ever really got to see. Before, Spock was always the outcast. Now we can explore Spock as he relates to a Vulcan instead of just seeing Spock relating to humans. How is that going to work out for him? Also, we're making Lieutenant Chekov our Chief of Security (as was planned in the old Phase II series)-so he's handling responsibilities he hasn't had to handle before, and he might well be in over his head. We're not seeing poor ol' Christine Chapel for (at least) five episodes in a row now, since she's off the Enterprise completing her M.D. training. So that's another change we've made. But I concede that I have a bit of an advantage over you: I've seen three episodes that have been shot (and another one being shot this coming June) which haven't even been released yet. So I've seen all kinds of character development and changes that you're not privvy to yet.

I understand what you're saying about not relying so much on the "flash factor." (I'm glad you think we're flashy!) But I think that's just a personal Trek preference, not a good vs. bad preference. We have a lot of fans who want the "flash factor" and if you just do an episode with the sole special effect being the Enterprise coming into and leaving orbit, some fans will complain. Candidly, I don't think our show is any more reliant on the flash factor than the original series was (although with only five episodes released--and including a learning curve--that's not much a statistical sample to work with). But I understand that our episodes so far might lean more towards "The Tholian Web" than "A Private Little War." As a show with a budget of $0.00, we try to make use of our standing sets; it's really expensive to make new sets and, especially, to do any kind of location shoots. These episodes cost me thousands and thousands of dollars to make--out of my own pocket, all for the love of Star Trek. It costs me enough as it is when we don't have to haul lights and cameras and equipment to some exterior location. At any rate, the point is, if we are stuck doing "bottle shows" (and we largely are until we get some money somehow), we have to do something to spice up the "bottle" stories--and that means "flash factor," I guess. All that being said, I've been toying with some kind of "interview" episode--like the "Clete Roberts interviews the personnel of the 4077th M.A.S.H unit" on M*A*S*H. It would be character driven and would have pretty minimal special effects--heck, it likely might not have much of a narrative or plot for that matter. But it's something we're toying with. So we don't shy away from such a "flash factor"-less approach. A story without much "flash factor" appeals to me, too, actually. But you and I aren't the only viewers (fortunately). We have to consider other viewers' tastes, too. I'm sure with time we'll tackle a variety of episodes--just as the original Trek had different kinds of episodes--drama, mystery, horror, comedy, and even musicals.

Thanks for the kind comments about our sets and special effects and thanks for the comparison to Modern Trek; it's nice to know that people put our silly show in the same ballpark. (I would probably include our costumes and props in that list, too.) But I also know that the script for our episode "World Enough and Time" was nominated for a Nebula Award by the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (Grrr! We lost to Pan's Labyrinth.) And the episode was nominated for a Hugo Award in the category of "Best Dramatic Presentation (Short Form)" by the World Science Fiction Society. (Grrr! Damn Doctor Who and "Blink"! I hate you Steven Moffat!) So, you have to (perhaps grudgingly) admit: we must have done something right with our writing and directing.

I apologize for the gynmastics of patting myself on the back regarding our Nebula and Hugo nominations. (Actually, I can't really pat myself on the back on this subject. I'm only patting Phase II on the back. I hadn't yet joined the Phase II team in any capacity when "World Enough and Time" was produced, so I can't really take any credit whatsoever for the final result and I didn't really contribute to the production.) But they are important milestones for our fledgling production--and I felt it was important that you be aware of them if you weren't already (or to not be so utterly dismissive of them if you were).

 

[BillJ]

Once again, thanks for your time Greg.

Perhaps it's just a case of 'you can't go home' for me. Star Trek (especially the original) is something special and perhaps that colors my judgment some. I'll continue to peek in from time to time (there are worst ways to kill an hour).

Good luck going forward.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Once again, thanks for your time Greg.

Perhaps it's just a case of 'you can't go home' for me. Star Trek (especially the original) is something special and perhaps that colors my judgment some. I'll continue to peek in from time to time (there are worst ways to kill an hour).

Good luck going forward.

I love it! I think I'll make that our new tagline:

"Star Trek Phase II: There are worse ways to kill an hour!"

 

[Tom Hendricks]

I said majority, not all...

Fair 'nough.

My major issue with most fan films/series is the reliance on somehow being tied to TOS, TNG, DS9, VGR or ENT. This usually entails using characters already established, continuing stories or story lines, continuing cancelled shows.

Why be encumbered by what has already be done, strike out on your own. Everyone knows what Star Trek is, why be shackled by it. Create your own stories, characters, etc.

I don't especially mind when that happens, as long as it serves the story, and said characters are well-realised. I do prefer original characters though.

How you doin' anyway, Tom? Haven't seen you 'round here in ages.

I too have enjoyed a few when they are done right. I completely enjoyed Hidden Frontier and they are probably the worst offenders to what I was saying. I think when HF first got started, (so many years ago) that it was the right idea to use many already established characters to get their fan series off the ground, so to speak. Fan stuff was new, it lent an easy way for Star Trek fans to move to this method of Star Trek story telling. However now, with so many fan series. I don't see the real need for it, you can be wholly original and I think that most ST fans will come and watch and be appreciative. I think it is now a crutch that needs to be avoided. Now, I'm not saying that fan series show avoid it all together, just should not be the basis for your fan series/film.

I have been busy, mostly taking care of my 4 month old son. I'm a stay at home dad, who does video editing from home. I'm also filming some corporate videos, so that pretty much takes up all my time. I know Tales of the Seventh Fleet has the next episode filmed, just needs to be edited and CGI done. I'm usually around the boards, often just reading but when I see something interesting I chime in.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Now, there's a good example of advice absent experience. Not that I've seen it happen myself, but it's vanishingly unlikely that a fan movie would shut down in the middle of production because the writer tried to deny them permission to continue. You can stomp around about the morality of that all you want, but there it is.

No, it's not... I HAVE experience. And you forget what I'm trying to say...

Fan productions are not big-hoopla Hollywood/Paramount things... you HAVE the luxury as a writer, of simply up and moving on, if a fan producer doesn't like your writing, or where you want to go with the story. That's because there's simply less invested in a fanfilm, than an actual Paramount production, and thus, less is supposedly lost.

Ask yourself... why do a lot of people watch fanfilms, or read Trek novels? Some do it just for the sake of it being new Trek. Others like me, hope to get something more from it, that we're not getting in TV and film Trek, mainly substance and quality. We want stories that don't depend on billion-ship wars, and bastardized ships and uniforms... we just want good, deep, and substantial stories, and character development.

A good writer with a qualifying script will bring in more viewers with a good story, and a good producer would know that. That's what separates a good fanfilm, from a fanwank production. If the writer KNOWS his story has true merit, and tells a worthwhile and gripping story, and the producer does not want it, it's up to the WRITER to either stay or leave, because there's no multi-million dollar binding contract or any money invested. He has his story, and the producer has his choice to make.

It all comes down to choice. The point is, you HAVE true choice with fanfilms, not so much with Paramount.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

...it's up to the WRITER to either stay or leave...He has his story, and the producer has his choice to make.

It's vanishingly unlikely that a fan movie would shut down in the middle of production because the writer tried to deny them permission to continue. You can stomp around about the morality of that all you want, but there it is.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Dude... I'm not even TRYING to imply that the production will shut down... YOU'RE saying that... I'm merely pointing out that if the writer wants to leave, and take the story with him, there's not a damned thing the producer(s) can do about it. Again, you were not hearing what my whole argument was.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I'm merely pointing out that if the writer wants to leave, and take the story with him, there's not a damned thing the producer(s) can do about it.

And why do you think that?

You seem to be of the impression that the absence of contracts and significant money automatically favors the writer or the other talent. And it ain't necessarily so. In a vacuum of specific legal obligations, who has what moral responsibility to whom depends a lot on where someone sits and how much they have invested in the project. And I don't believe I've observed a single really complicated fan production where the finished show was exactly what the writer had in mind.

If everybody involved isn't willing to compromise and work together under circumstances in which no one will get exactly what they want, they should just stay away from these kinds of projects. Period.

 

[Maurice]

Let's say I agreed to write a script for a fanfilm. Let's say the producers of said fanfilm built sets and cleared locations and built props, and maybe even secured equipment. Now, let's say the producers are changing things or asking for changes I don't agree with, and I take my word processor and go home. Do you really think they're gonna stop cold and commision another script? Or are they gonna shoot the script I wrote and delivered, making the changes they want? The former is possible, but the latter is likley. And if they do? Then what? No contract, no money exchanged, and the film isn't a commercial enterprise, so there's not much legal recourse, if any.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Bingo!

Now, in fact I've never heard of that happening. People do have investments in these projects - if not money (and often they do) then emotional investments, time put in and so on - and that includes the writers. We're all motivated to work together and work through disagreements and other problems.

You know what - if a central actor either walked out or became unavailable in the middle of a complicated fan film shoot it'd cause much more trouble for the production than a runaway writer. So even here the actors have more "clout" than we do.

 

[GSchnitzer]

I think if someone wrote a script that we all agreed to use and if things develop and the writer ends up leaving the project and tries to "take his script with him," we'd probably still shoot the script with whatever changes we'd want to see made even if the writer has pulled out. I mean, how's he going to stop us? (Actually, I don't know if that's definately how we'd handle the situtation but that's certainly a *likely* scenario.)

DS9Sega is right: No contracts, no money changing hands, the project isn't a commercial enterprise and not a dime is being brought in by the production. If the the writer wants to leave, and wants to try and take the story with him, the producer(s) would probably just use the story anyway without the writer's continued involvement and there not a damned thing the writer could do about it.

 

[Danoz]

What is your biggest gripe, complaint, or criticism about fan films in general.


Mine is a tie between costumes and music.

Bad acting.

I don't care if the set, special effects and costuming is nonexistent and it is performed in a cardboard box. Writing and acting should be very, very polished.

 

[Danoz]

Also, using gay or lesbian characters. I absolutely HATE this. It's SO not needed. By the 24th century, nobody gives a flying rat's ass if you're gay or not. It doesn't matter. Thus, it shouldn't be a major plot point, in any fanfilm. The ONLY reason for it to be, is to "shake up" the status quo, or shock us, in OUR time, which again, is stupid, because again, if it's nothing special in Trek's time, why would we care at all? Showing it to us is actually counterproductive, because it only serves to highlight that there might be something "different" about gay people.

Gonna have to strongly disagree with you on that. While I absolutely agree in not making it a big issue, that is, any gay characters should just be part of the tapestry, you can't simply ignore their existence. If you're going to show straight relationships, then gay and bi relationships should be present also. Doesn't mean they have to be an issue, or wave a flag around saying "we're gay" but to simply ignore homosexuality and bisexuality sends exactly the same message as simply saying it's wrong.

Except for the fact that I have never seen this done in a fan fiction where it wasn't completely in-your-face and political.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Except for the fact that I have never seen this done in a fan fiction where it wasn't completely in-your-face and political.

How do you gauge "political?" Certainly Kirk's many romances are generally "in-your-face."

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

What is your biggest gripe, complaint, or criticism about fan films in general.


Mine is a tie between costumes and music.

Bad acting.

I don't care if the set, special effects and costuming is nonexistent and it is performed in a cardboard box. Writing and acting should be very, very polished.

 

[Maurice]

Bad acting.

I don't care if the set, special effects and costuming is nonexistent and it is performed in a cardboard box. Writing and acting should be very, very polished.

That's a wonderful sentiment, but let's be real here, it's fans who want to make and be in these films. How many of the captains in these shows are the producers? Most. Furthermore, most actors not really into Star Trek are unlikely to make time to be in such things. Filmmaking is a serious time burn and commitment. And rotten direction can derail a good performance even if you have good actors.

 

[The Transformed Man]

Something different every week. Lately it's lighting.

Actually, that's not a complaint or gripe or criticism. It's a concern.

Yup... lighting... terrible, wretched lighting.

Oh and "kitchen sink" episodes that try to throw every fanboy masturbatory idea into a single cohesive story (oh look, ANOTHER Doomsday machine). Just give us a solid story with solid characters.