What is THE Worst continuity error in Trek history..?!

[HIjol]

A rerun of the Kessel run with the Enterprise and Millennium Falcon winner takes all

The Borg as presented in the episode Q Who were a lot more scary then they were later on as they just devolved. Had they kept them that way they'd have been much more effective.

Who pilots the Enterprise, and how much of a head start does the Falcon get?



I agree with you about the Borg!

 

[Anwar]

I don't see the same thing between the Borg and the Dominion. Not even close.
The Borg were defeated time and again by a single ship stranded from any resources. In comparison, as you insisted, the Dominon's weakening at least had story reasons to support it, as they were cut off from their main resource hub via the Wormhole. Which is more believable?

And if Voyager had done something like have Q pop up and say "Okay, for fun I'm going to take away the Borg's ability to adapt to weapons and regenerate damage!" and he does so...there'd still be complaints.

 

[BillJ]

To be honest, the Roddenberry vision I follow is the one laid out in the TMP novelization. The one with love instructors.

I demand Love Instructors be in the new Star Trek or else I'm boycotting!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

So basically, you think it's dumb that people in the future should act any differently from people in the 20th Century. In any way, at all

Since that's not what I said, no. Please don't put words in my mouth and ascribe opinions to me just so you can try to start an argument.

 

[The Wormhole]

The worst continuity error in Star Trek history is......
No Money!!

That's not really a continuity error. Outside from a few references in the early seasons to "accounts" everything from TNG onwards has been pretty consistent about trying to say the Federation doesn't have money. Now you can complain about how this makes no sense and that a real society can't operate without some sort of monetary-based economy, but continuity has nothing to do with this.

Surely "The Man Trap" airing before "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is the biggest continuity mistake in Star Trek history?

Not really, WNMHGB clearly takes place before The Man Trap, just assume it's out of sequence, or treat it like a flashback episode. Even if you do want to stand by the claim that it's a continuity error, it's certainly not Trek's biggest.

 

[fireproof78]

And if Voyager had done something like have Q pop up and say "Okay, for fun I'm going to take away the Borg's ability to adapt to weapons and regenerate damage!" and he does so...there'd still be complaints.

And? That's a bit of strawman argument that really doesn't track from the rest of the conversation.

The reason why I call the Borg Queen a continuity error is simply put that it changes the dynamic of the Borg, regardless of any depowering arguments. Unlike the Dominon, who are multi-layered with the Jem Hedar, the Vorta and the Founders, the Borg were presented as a collectivist whole, with no leader. The idea of the Queen presents a very individualistic face, who's death is apparently akin to cutting off the head of the snake. Which is not consistent with their presentation in "Q Who?" and "Best of Both Worlds."

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Who pilots the Enterprise, and how much of a head start does the Falcon get?



I agree with you about the Borg!

Well we'll let Tom Paris pilot the Enterprise with the manual joystick and foot pedals to accelerate and brake, since he likes the old fashioned look.

As for the Borg yeah I liked how they were presented in Q Who but as others have said they just couldn't have strung that out for a whole series of appearances and kept them interesting. But it's just that way they were presented in that episode just scared me more then their later appearance..

 

[Anwar]

Since that's not what I said, no. Please don't put words in my mouth and ascribe opinions to me just so you can try to start an argument.

You hated the utopianism, which means you want everything to be 100% the way things are today. Like how TOS had virtually everything be exactly the same as the 1960s.

And? That's a bit of strawman argument that really doesn't track from the rest of the conversation.

If there was some "in-universe" justification for the Borg being depowered like that, the reaction would be negative.

Hell, have Voyager take place on some Alien Spaceship they found with superweapons powerful enough to obliterate a Cube in a single barrage, weapons the Borg could never adapt to because they were so powerful, and the reaction would still be negative.

The reason why I call the Borg Queen a continuity error is simply put that it changes the dynamic of the Borg,

An unsustainable dynamic if they were to show up more than once or twice.

 

[fireproof78]

If there was some "in-universe" justification for the Borg being depowered like that, the reaction would be negative.

Maybe. It depends on how it is presented. I can react negatively to something but if it makes sense "in universe" I can accept it. A negative reaction does not automatically equal "bad."

Hell, have Voyager take place on some Alien Spaceship they found with superweapons powerful enough to obliterate a Cube in a single barrage, weapons the Borg could never adapt to because they were so powerful, and the reaction would still be negative.

There's more to it than that. And, they actually explored that too with Species 8472, in a similar fashion.

Voyager also suffers from a lack of ascribable credibility.

An unsustainable dynamic if they were to show up more than once or twice.

But it can still be evolved in a way that makes sense "in universe." There are ways to tweak ideas without wholly reinventing them or retconning a prior power.

 

[Anwar]

Maybe. It depends on how it is presented. I can react negatively to something but if it makes sense "in universe" I can accept it. A negative reaction does not automatically equal "bad."

Name me some "negative reactions" in Trek that have since come to be seen as good.

Once a hater, always a hater.

There's more to it than that. And, they actually explored that too with Species 8472, in a similar fashion

And guess what, no one liked that the 8472 could do any damage to the Borg.

Voyager also suffers from a lack of ascribable credibility.

It never had a chance to build up any.

But it can still be evolved in a way that makes sense "in universe." There are ways to tweak ideas without wholly reinventing them or retconning a prior power.

Not when they're the Borg.

 

[fireproof78]

Name me some "negative reactions" in Trek that have since come to be seen as good.

Once a hater, always a hater.

Nonsense.

And guess what, no one liked that the 8472 could do any damage to the Borg.

Again nonsense and a logical fallacy. I liked 8472 and the fact that they could go toe to toe with the Borg.

It never had a chance to build up any.

Sure it did. But, we've been down this path before.

Not when they're the Borg.

If you say so.

Frankly, and before we mire this thread with a back and forth on VOY, as we have done before, the broad, sweeping generalizations are simply not something I buy, or have found evidence for. So, if this is to continue, send me a PM with some evidence to discuss. Beyond that, I don't follow any of these arguments because they are logical fallacies, at best.

 

[Anwar]

Nonsense.

The fact we're still arguing these points is a testament to the unending vitriolic hatred Voyager still gets after 20 years. That every last concept the show ever told is still ripped to shreds and anyone who enjoyed the show is still ostracized by other Trek fans speaks volumes.

I liked 8472 and the fact that they could go toe to toe with the Borg.

If TNG had introduced them, I seriously doubt anyone would say their very existence ruined the Borg.

Sure it did.

Let me put it this way, Voyager is the happy cheerful kid who thought "Oh boy, I'm starting school! It'll be loads of fun!" and then gets stuck with the teacher (the Trek fandom) who singles them out for humiliation at every turn, only ever notices what they do wrong, never ever pays attention to anything they do right and make it clear the kid is never going to be anything but a failure who will never amount to anything.

If you say so

History says so.

 

[fireproof78]

The fact we're still arguing these points is a testament to the unending vitriolic hatred Voyager still gets after 20 years. That every last story the show ever told is still ripped to shreds and anyone who enjoyed the show is still ostracized by other Trek fans speaks volumes.

Vitriol? Where? I cannot find it and I have looked, aside from the occasional post or hyperbolic comment. I find vitriol for Abrams, for Star Trek V, for Insurrection, and Nemesis.
Criticism does not equal vitriol and I may criticize parts of VOY and I will praise it when it does well. I have seen similar criticisms levied at VOY, DS9, ENT and every other Star Trek incarnation. If there is a problem in one, I can no doubt find the others doing something similar. VOY just seemed to do more of it, as did ENT.

If TNG had introduced them, I seriously doubt anyone would say their very existence ruined the Borg. Mainly because TNG had no problem showing off plenty of aliens who made the Borg look like babies without the audience getting mad.

Doubtful.

Let me put it this way, Voyager is the happy cheerful kid who thought "Oh boy, I'm starting school! It'll be loads of fun!" and then gets stuck with the teacher (the Trek fandom) who singles them out for humiliation at every turn, only ever notices what they do wrong, never ever pays attention to anything they do right and make it clear the kid is never going to be anything but a failure who will never amount to anything.

An odd analogy. I don't think it quite fits.

History says so.

Sorry, I cannot take your word for it. I find criticism, some hyperbole, and the occasional angry rant. I also find praise, suppport and a lot of episodes that are considered good, and a lot of praise for characters like the Doctor and Seven of Nine. The fact that we are still talking about those characters and their growth speaks to one of the shows strengths.

 

[Nebusj]

Name me some "negative reactions" in Trek that have since come to be seen as good.

Once a hater, always a hater.

Well, there was what folks thought of Next Generation, although there it was the third and fourth seasons that changed minds.

More locally, spend any time in the Trek Movies forum and you'll find a good number of people who've come around to figuring The Motion Picture is the best of the lot (I'm among them). And a striking number of people who'll sing the praises of The Final Frontier (and I am among them too). You can say there was always some fondness for The Motion Picture and that's true enough, but Star Trek V started out with the fan evaluation of ``let's not speak of this again'' and has since recovered.

(There's also efforts to rehabilitate the reputation of the first two seasons of Next Generation under way; sometimes, minds get changed.)

 

[fireproof78]

^^
Nonsense. This is the Internet. Nobody changes their minds.

 

[Anwar]

Vitriol? Where?

Go read anything SFDebris ever had to say about the show, ever.

I have seen similar criticisms levied at VOY, DS9, ENT and every other Star Trek incarnation.

Have you ever seen anyone say "I could die a happy man if I saw Kirk/Picard/Sisko/Archer getting raped"? Janeway is the only one that gets that.

Doubtful.

Have "Q Who?" have Q teleport the ENT-D into the middle a battle between a Borg Cube and some 8472 Bioships, with it being clear that the Borg aren't powerful enough to destroy them and I doubt anyone would've complained about the 8472 aliens.

An odd analogy. I don't think it quite fits.

Voyager just wants to please and be treated with the same decency as all the other students (the other Trek shows) and nothing it ever does will satisfy the Teacher (the audience). And all the student (Voyager) gets for its' troubles is scorn and disgust, with the other students ostracizing it merely for being there.

I also find praise, suppport and a lot of episodes that are considered good

Trek fans can say what they want now, but it's too little too late.

They gave nothing but a "One Strike You're Out" attitude, so now they get one in return. Fair is fair, after all.

Well, there was what folks thought of Next Generation, although there it was the third and fourth seasons that changed minds.

The first two seasons of TNG are seen as goofy but good-natured fun, not bad TV.

 

[fireproof78]

Go read anything SFDebris ever had to say about the show, ever.

Was not aware he spoke for the entire fandom. "Opinionated" must stand for "Gold Standard."

Have you ever seen anyone say "I could die a happy man if I saw Kirk/Picard/Sisko/Archer getting raped"? Janeway is the only one that gets that.

Death threats and other threats of bodily injury to JJ Abrams must fall under a different category then.

Have "Q Who?" have Q teleport the ENT-D into the middle a battle between a Borg Cube and some 8472 Bioships, with it being clear that the Borg aren't powerful enough to destroy them and I doubt anyone would've complained about the 8472 aliens.

Again, I doubt that. There are always complaints, especially about new aliens.

Voyager just wants to please and be treated with the same decency as all the other students (the other Trek shows) and nothing it ever does will satisfy the Teacher (the audience). And all the student (Voyager) gets for its' troubles is scorn and disgust, with the other students ostracizing it merely for being there.

ENT gets it too. Let's pity ENT as well.

Trek fans can say what they want now, but it's too little too late.

Then why talk about it?

They gave nothing but a "One Strike You're Out" attitude, so now they get one in return. Fair is fair, after all.

I'll show myself out then.

The first two seasons of TNG are seen as goofy but good-natured fun, not bad TV.

Um, no. Go read anything by SF Debris regarding Season 1 and 2 TNG.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I for one also liked 8472. I just wish we had learnt their actual name as a species. I was glad we finally had a tough species that could go toe to toe with the Borg and make them weep.

I just wish we had learnt a lot more about them then we did. I also liked the Hirogen.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

You hated the utopianism, which means you want everything to be 100% the way things are today. Like how TOS had virtually everything be exactly the same as the 1960s.

No. I agreed with a statement that Kor made that Star Trek should be fun. Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Stop it.

 

[Anwar]

Was not aware he spoke for the entire fandom. "Opinionated" must stand for "Gold Standard.

When someone defends the series as much as he trashes it, then maybe there'd be a sign the fandom doesn't hate Voyager.

Death threats and other threats of bodily injury to JJ Abrams must fall under a different category then.

When you get that kind of nastiness directed to a fictional lead, you have to wonder what is going through peoples' heads.

Again, I doubt that. There are always complaints, especially about new aliens.

Except the Borg, the Dominion, the Cardassians, etc.

ENT gets it too. Let's pity ENT as well.

People look back on ENT with much more sympathy nowadays. Much much more.

Then why talk about it?

I mean it's too little too late to try and pretend they didn't hate the show while it was on.

Um, no. Go read anything by SF Debris regarding Season 1 and 2 TNG.

Which he'll still point out the good in, unlike any aspect of Voyager.

No. I agreed with a statement that Kor made that Star Trek should be fun. Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Stop it.

And you agree with Kor about how the Utopianism was a dumb thing too, which means you advocate things being 100% the same as the present day right now.