Spoilers What happened the night the Ben turned on Luke

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by JD, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Location:
    California
    I don't see your point. "Luke always did the right thing eventually, so it's out of character for him to do the right thing eventually, as opposed to immediately. I have this chart that shows the amount of consideration required decreasing over time, clearly illustrating that by thirty-some years after Return of the Jedi, Luke would take no more than a quarter-second to decide violence would be an inappropriate means to save the lives of billions of people, including his best friend, Han Solo, which is too little time for even a Jedi to draw and ignite a Lightsaber."

    No lapse is understandable, no matter how brief.

    It's no wonder Luke withdrew himself from society. There's no way Wormie could ever live up to being Luke Skywalker, Paragon of Virtue (except for all those gangsters he rope-a-doped rather than just busting Han out of Jabba's Palace without taking the time to completely obliterate his criminal syndicate). I mean, come on! Look at your own sig-line! You equate being rude to unrepentant, racist murderers with actual racism. Being mean to racists is racism! Preventing mass-murder is unheroic! Committing mass-murder is fine if you're rebelling against disapproving authority figures! Up is down, black is white, good is evil! Why couldn't Luke just crush some tanks full of terrified First Order nobodies with his mind like I wanted, like a hero?
     
  2. Captain of the USS Averof

    Captain of the USS Averof Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Location:
    Greece
    ...and raising a weapon with the intent of killing your sleeping nephew (because... premonition) is the heroic thing to do!
     
  3. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    Republic of California
    Heroic....no. Human....yes. Luke made a mistake because of the Dark Side....fear. He looked into the future, saw something that Ben might do (might be something he did do, or something he'll never do) and was scared. Scared enough to want to stop it from every happening...for a second. One second was enough to ignite his lightsaber with the intend of ending this potential monster from ever doing anything to the galaxy. But than Luke's Jedi nature and humanity kicked in. He restrained himself from that killing blow and remembered when he tried to take him father's life in anger. But before he could close down the lightsaber, Ben was awake and acting on what he saw. And the monster awoke. By the time Luke woke up, Ben was gone and everyone one else was dead or missing. Luke gave into fear and failed.
     
    BeatleJWOL and Trek Survivor like this.
  4. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I've never really seen Luke as some perfect, flawless hero, even in the OT we repeatedly see him rushing off and doing stupid shit without thinking it through. He rushes off to his home when he didn't know if the stormtroopers were still there or not, he ignored Obi-Wan and Yoda's warnings and rushed off to rescue Han and Leia, and in the process almost died, and we also saw him lose shit and almost fall to the Dark Side during his fight with Vader in ROTJ. So reacting to a situation without thinking and doing stupid shit, really isn't all that out of character for him.
    Just saw the quotes from this on CBR, and it sounds more like his issue was with Luke running off and hiding out more than what happened with Ben. I could actually see having an issue with that more than what happened with Ben.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  5. EnsignRicky

    EnsignRicky Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Location:
    Pre-Apocalyptic Earth
    Again; much of that was while he was still a young inexperienced character just beginning his Hero's Journey.

    Great. Now I have the image in my head of Joseph Campbell spinning violently in his grave.

    PS, Rushing off to save Han and Leia was actually the right thing to do; Luke is a true friend.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  6. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Location:
    California
    Well, that's a shame, because I only saw three movies featuring Luke Skywalker, and I can only judge his character based on them. Apparently, you saw more of them, after he became a Jedi Knight, and then a Jedi Master. Which is funny, because Yoda said Luke would only be promoted to Jedi once he killed Vader, if we're going to be all official about everything.

    On the other hand, I have seen what Jedi Masters who aren't Luke Skywalker have to say about when people turn to the dark side. Wise, experienced characters at the end of their journeys.

    Odd. Young Skywalker doesn't seem to have a problem acting rashly before reconsidering, but the Jedi Masters are all unanimous that there's only one appropriate response to someone falling to the dark side. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Luke Skywalker was constitutionally incapable of reacting as he did; it seems everything pointed towards it.

    Indeed, all my best friends don't contribute to my escape from peril and, in fact, require me to risk myself rescuing them due to their own ineptness leading to them being suspended from a giant antenna over a bottomless drop. Going to Cloud City was a mistake. Luke screwed up, badly. That mistake lead to him being more cautious and considered in Return of the Jedi, character growth you're extrapolating from to assert that Luke isn't even capable of making a wrong decision any longer, but if it wasn't a mistake, then why are you so upset Luke was willing to make a similarly rash action to protect his friends here?
     
    Trek Survivor and Set Harth like this.
  7. Captain of the USS Averof

    Captain of the USS Averof Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Location:
    Greece
    Young Luke saw the good in Darth Vader, a man who committed actual atrocities and was responsible for the death of hundreds/thousands/millions and still refused to strike and kill him in the midst of battle.

    But experienced Jedi Master Luke lost all hope in his own nephew, who hadn’t fully gone to the dark side yet and hadn’t actually committed an evil act and planned to KILL HIM IN HIS SLEEP...

    And we’re STILL discussing THIS?!

    :shifty: :wtf: :cardie: :ack: :vulcan: :eek: :crazy: :rolleyes: :brickwall:
     
    USS Firefly likes this.
  8. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Location:
    東京
    The Jedi Masters were all wiped out. So much for their wisdom. Luke, the one who decided not to kill, survived and won. That's why he is the hero of the story and all the others died.
     
  9. JasonJ

    JasonJ Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Ben didn't turn on Luke ... as we saw it, Luke turned on Ben.

    He didn't even try to save him.. just decided to execute him in his sleep. No wonder all he saw were the eyes of a frightened boy.

    That is, IF that is what really happened.

    I also have to wonder, shouldn't Luke's new Jedi Training Academy have had some graduates before it was destroyed? Luke was clearly older when Ben burned it all down... it doesn't take THAT long to train a padawan to at least Jedi Knight status. I figure if Ben was perhaps 16-20yrs old when it all went to shit, then in that solid 15 years since ROTJ, Luke probably should have really given rise to at least a dozen Jedi Knights, and perhaps a new Jedi Master or two in that time.

    Those Jedi would have gone off and started their own training academies... resulting in more Jedi... the point being, there ought to be, by my understanding, at least a few dozen or even as many as 100 Jedi in existence by the time of TFA.
     
  10. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Maybe they are training new Jedi and they are just hiding :)
     
    JasonJ likes this.
  11. JasonJ

    JasonJ Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    We could only hope... perhaps that is the climax of Ep. IX, a small army of new Jedi arrive with Rey leading them into battle against the FO. If so, let's just hope they don't make the same mistakes as the last Jedi Order.
     
  12. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I haven't read it, but I think someone here who has read Bloodline said that Luke still hadn't set up his academy in it, and that was just 6 years before TFA.
     
  13. Hela

    Hela Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Location:
    Hela
    He didn’t save anyone. Han was long gone, and Leia had already escaped.

    Luke ended up being saved by his friends. They had to fly back into Imperial occupied Cloud City to pick him up. He put them in danger. Because he was impatient. Because he was arrogant. Because he didn’t have faith in them.

    Oh, and he slipped closer to the Dark Side as an added bonus. Meaning he endangered the entire universe to boot. Woot.

    Not to mention, Luke had to mount his little ‘rescue’ because he’s abandoned the entire Rebellion for his own personal Jedi shit. Which is probably the main reason his sister didn’t tear him a new arsehole during their reunion: situationally acquired cynicism.

    As for ‘it was the beginning of his training!’ ESB was also the end of his training, Luke never got anymore. He went from failed student with one achievement under his belt and unresolved issues of his own, straight to teacher. Small wonder he ended up fucking it up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    Mr. Laser Beam and fireproof78 like this.
  14. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    By the end of ROTJ, yes Luke was a Jedi Knight, but he personally may not have been up to the task of training a new generation of Jedi for several years after. Also, it sounds as though the Empire painted the Jedi as the instigators of the Separatist War/Clone War and were not to be trusted, so there may have been political issues getting an academy going within the new Republic as many of the galactic leaders still wouldn't trust the Jedi. Furthermore, how would one find force sensitive Jedi-to-be in a galaxy with trillions of beings? I can see it taking 15-25 years to get a Jedi Academy off the ground.

    I hope there are books written, but my guess is that Luke, and Ben when he was old enough, hopped around the galaxy saving people and trying to show the Jedi were the good guys as well as scouting for new talent.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Have you met fandom?

    Also, what would the consequences be if Luke had killed Anakin in the midst of a battle? Like Ben, he was being goaded along the path to the Dark Side, like Rey expecting that by killing the great evil she could save the lost. Neither respected the individual power of choice. Luke was afraid of an evil that had consumed his father, almost consumed him and now threatened his nephew. He was terrified.

    It took Yoda returning to complete Luke's training, reminding him of his failures as well as his successes.
    If there is one part of ESB/ROTJ that I still struggle with making sense is Luke's training is incomplete at the end of one, and complete by the time of the beginning of another...wait, what?

    Honestly, the only way I really see Yoda's words coming true is what is unfolding in the ST right now.
     
  16. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Yeah, I never fully understood that either and it seems like Luke didn't intend to be on Dagobah for very long after leaving Tatooine in ROTJ. He knew that he was under a time crunch as the Rebellion was going to attack Death Star II during the short window it was vulnerable (or so they thought). I believe Luke even told Leia that he wouldn't be long. Granted he had almost a year between ESB and ROTJ to hone his skills, so maybe Luke was just hoping to get some last minute words of wisdom from Yoda. :shrug:
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    "Very good at handstands, he is."

    "What is it with you and handstands?"

    /With all due respect to Trey Stokes.
     
  18. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Eh, I don't know about that. Obi-Wan didn't make Jedi Knight until he was 24. And his career started in the Temple as a youngling (under Yoda's tutelage) and then moved on to be trained by a master. In the EU, Obi-Wan lost his first master (he died), before be set up with Qui-Gon at 13. From what I recall, Obi had to start all over and didn't get credit for time served and stuff learned. Obi made Jedi Master (council member) by age 35-36. After AOTC but before ROTS.

    With Luke, he'd be one master trying to guide multiple people, with no help. At best, I say Luke would have one knight (Kylo) and several adult padawans.
     
  19. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    He could even have been older. I don't know what ( if anything ) new-canon says about it, but it's not like we get any specific information on his age in the movies.
     
  20. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    Republic of California
    While Luke did better than his father, he still had things to learn. "Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering." Luke would sometimes give in the Hate, to Anger, to Fear. Each time lead to suffering. But, he never went at far as Anakin. He always managed to stop himself...but this time with Ben....Luke stopped himself, but the Fear took Ben Solo, and all was seemingly lost. Ben lacks something that kept Luke from falling, and something that made Anakin regret and force himself to suffer after Padme's death....Darth Vader's self-hatred that fueled his powers in the Dark Side.