Vader being Luke's father wasn't actually a "twist"; Lucas largely kept it secret only for the sake of getting an honest 'in-the-moment' reaction from Mark.
Spoilers What happened the night the Ben turned on Luke
- Thread starter JD
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Vader being Luke's father wasn't actually a "twist"; Lucas largely kept it secret only for the sake of getting an honest 'in-the-moment' reaction from Mark.
Regardless of whether it was conceived as such, to me it was a unforseen twist back when I first saw ESB on video in the early 90s, definitely the defining moment that makes this the best SW-movie. And to think that future viewers could be deprived of the genuine reaction because they know what's coming (essentially because they were spoiled by the prequels), is not a good thought.
Not to forget the fact that they'd have to make it through the prequels first in order to even get to movie 5... not sure I'd have made it, the inane dialogue between Anakin and Padme on the one hand and the depiction of the Jedi Order on the other would have made it pretty difficult to even *want* more SW...
Not to forget the fact that they'd have to make it through the prequels first in order to even get to movie 5... not sure I'd have made it, the inane dialogue between Anakin and Padme on the one hand and the depiction of the Jedi Order on the other would have made it pretty difficult to even *want* more SW...
With Carrie Fisher gone from Ep IX, I wonder if that left them holding the bag with a potential confrontation / "hail mary" turning attempt of Kylo Ren by Leia and Force Ghost Luke.
Might we see instead an intervention by Force Ghost Luke and Anakin (reprised by Hayden Christensen)? That would tie the PT and the NT (new trilogy) together nicely... if anyone is actually interested in that connection.
Might we see instead an intervention by Force Ghost Luke and Anakin (reprised by Hayden Christensen)? That would tie the PT and the NT (new trilogy) together nicely... if anyone is actually interested in that connection.
Except, as Mark tells it now, he was told about the reveal before the scene.
An interaction betwee Ghost Anakin and Kylo would be fascinating. It would be very interesting to see how Kylo would react to meeting the grandfather he worships, and to see what a redeemed Anakin would make of Kylo.
Him and Obi Wan have a lot in common now. Except Obi Wan dealt with it in a far better way.
Did he? I mean he turned a blind eye towards Anakin's fall, he ignored his attachment to Padme (even deliberately sent him with Padme at the end of AotC when he was particularly vulnerable), he didn't actually follow through with killing Anakin, no rather left him to die in a more than cruel way (only for Palpatine to pick Anakin up and turn him into Vader). I agree that they have a lot in common, but not that Obi-Wan dealt with it in any better way - but maybe he could have helped Luke with Kylo or the trauma that night caused, indeed learning from his own failure.
Yeah, like all of that information we got in 1983 on The Emperor. And all of those appearances and background we got on the Dark Lords of the Sith during the OT period! What a letdown. Damn you, Rian Johnson. Damn you. /sarcasm
I mean he dealt with it in a better way after all that happened. When we meet Obi Wan in the desert he is not a broken man closed off to the force. Unlike Luke who might as well have a bottle of rye in his hand.
So how was Luke teaching his students? I am aware at how the old EU (now legends) handled it, but was Luke teaching his students in a classroom style setting or what?
Granted. OTOH, he did have Luke to watch over, something to occupy his mind with and sort of keep him on the straight and narrow... Luke didn't have that. Not to mention that Obi-Wan had a lifetime of discipline and learning to hold on to, Luke just had a couple of days with Obi-Wan and Yoda.
I think there's a difference between a succession of Sith Lords and the Emperor versus a one-off guy who uses the Dark Side. First, as some have pointed out, the Emperor was given a back story in the film novels. He was established as former Senator Palpatine who rose to power through the Dark Side. That's better than what we got for Snoke.
Second, the PT establishes enough backstory for the Sith Lords (1000 year battle with Jedi, there are always two, etc...) for us to be OK with who they are and what they're trying to do, even if there's a revolving door of them.
I suppose one can argue that Snoke and Kylo Ren are just these shmoes who happened to fall into the Dark Side through their innate Force sensitivity and inner anger. That back story was given for Ben Solo / KR, but the origin and rise of Snoke remains very much a mystery.
So basically, you’re proving my point for me.
First, the Emperor... all the information was in the tie-in novels. Who’s to say they won’t do the same for Snoke?
When The Dark Lords of the Sith were created, they were not designated as being a line of succession. That was an EU/prequel thing. That’s my point. It wasn’t there in the original films.
There was no development of these lore points other than the fact they were there from1977 to 1983 outside of tie ins. Why can that be okay then and not okay now?
There’s only so much you can do in a film. Stopping and explaining either of these things would have ground the film to a halt and be nothing more than fan service.
Take your nephew camping then kill him in his sleep.
It's the Jedi way.
It's the Jedi way.
I never thought Rian Johnson would use a scenario from his movie, "Looper", to explain Kylo Ren's turn to evil. Jesus.
I'm not saying that Luke isn't capable of such an act. But the way he did it in this film goes against his character and past history. Apparently Johnson thought he could lift his old "Looper" scenario and use it in this film without considering characterization or situation. And he is being praised by the media for this.
I'm not saying that Luke isn't capable of such an act. But the way he did it in this film goes against his character and past history. Apparently Johnson thought he could lift his old "Looper" scenario and use it in this film without considering characterization or situation. And he is being praised by the media for this.
Mark Hamill said that the Wampa scene in ESB (when Luke cuts the Wampas arm off) was out of character for Luke, think Mark only wanted Luke to scare the Wampa away, or singe the fur....
Just saying if that was out of character for Luke, then the tent scene with Kylo was way out of character. Even while watching the movie I was trying to rationalize it in my head.
Just saying if that was out of character for Luke, then the tent scene with Kylo was way out of character. Even while watching the movie I was trying to rationalize it in my head.
Don't try to rationalize anything in this poorly written mess. Seriously, you'll hurt yourself.
If anybody want's to figure anything out, try figuring why the hell Disney allowed some moron to produce the worlds most expensive fan film.
You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll kiss your childhood goodbye.
If anybody want's to figure anything out, try figuring why the hell Disney allowed some moron to produce the worlds most expensive fan film.
You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll kiss your childhood goodbye.
You say that like the Knights of Ren were a going concern in TFA, or any of the ancillary material. They were a half-second of footage, and part of one sentence from Snoke. On a per-second basis, they might've gotten more exposure in TLJ depending on how quickly Luke said "Ben left with a handful of my students." Hell, that confirms way more than we already knew for sure; the Knights of Ren weren't a preexisting group Kylo joined, they are Force-users, they're likely personally loyal to him rather than to Snoke or the First Order...
We got exactly as much about them in this movie as we had befroe; "Kylo has a posse. They're not here right now." The Knights of Ren being so underdeveloped as to border on the theoretical is a flaw in The Force Awakens, and unless the plan was for them to come into play later (which, based on how things have developed, may be the case, as we need some secondary bad-guys now that the First Order is down to Hux and Ren), I would argue the failure was not cutting them out of the first movie entirely rather than establishing them without any plans to make use of them dramatically.
That is the real question. All we of Ben Solo's corruption is him being woken up confused. Luke says Ben was flirting with the Dark Side and then sees a flash-forward when he tries to investigate it (probably the highlights of the Force Awakens, the casual brutality, patricide, and mass-murder), and it's enough to make Luke panic, but it's hard for the viewer to know if that's an understandable action.
As an aside, people's sense of betrayal by Luke is surprising to me, since "Would you kill baby Hitler?" was the hot thought experiment of 2016. Clearly, TLJ asserts the wrongest answer is "Maybe." If Luke hadn't hesitated, that'd be one thing, and if he never considered it, it'd be another, but drawing his weapon then thinking it over was where it all fell apart. And we certainly know Luke is capable of acting rashly when provoked, and that his great strength as a Jedi wasn't that he never felt temptation, but that he was able to stop himself. He attacked the Emperor in the Throne Room, and then flew into a rage when Vader threatened Leia and came within a hair's breadth of killing him after he was subdued. Exactly the same thing happened here, except his audience wasn't hoping for him to murder someone and, thus, panicked.
Anyway, back to my point, Leia is under the impression Snoke had been grooming Ben for a long time. If she's right, then it gives credence to Luke's suspicions. Another point in Luke's column is Ben's reaction. Rather than running away, or trying to figure out what happened, he burns down his school and kills anyone who doesn't decide to join him on the path to evil (which implies he'd already been cultivating his "Knights"). What if Luke was being mind-controlled, or was some sort of illusion? What if there was a trash-monster in Kylo's tent about to strangle him and drag him into the swamp, and Luke was aiming at that? What if Luke had just watched the Pink Panther movies and decided on a more spontaneous schedule for combat drills? If murdering a student in his sleep who's falling to the dark side isn't the Jedi Way (and, hey, whose to say it's not? In a thousand generations, there have to have been some bad apples before), certainly ransacking a temple and killing all your buddies isn't the proper Jedi response, either.
