Spoilers What happened the night the Ben turned on Luke

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by JD, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One wonders how he got off tatooine, defeated the empire, his father and the emperor at all...
    His nephew asleep in bed was what pushed him over the edge and made him lose his way :confused:
    No, Yoda didn't need to come back. He did his job almost 40 years before.
     
  2. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's the implication, though I don't think it's quite that explicit. I think all that's said is that during the event of that novel (the immediate prelude to Leia forming the Resistance) Ben and Luke were off roaming the galaxy together or some-such.

    Given the time scale I think it's very probable the new Temple was established quite a bit earlier. Maybe as much as a decade or two depending on when Leia asked Luke to train Ben. It'd make sense that Luke would have to split his time between his students and his travels to recover lost Jedi knowledge and artefacts, given the circumstances.
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Right...that's how people work...they never struggle with personal fears or failures when they are older. :rolleyes:

    That's a very poor summary of how individuals grow and change.
     
  4. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    From the Phantom Menace, it was said that Obi is 15 years older than Anakin. Anakin was 9 in TPM, so Obi would be 24. By ROTS, Anakin was 22 and Obi was 37. Then in ANH, Obi is 57.

    Looking at Obi from ROTS and the start of ANH, people age like milk in the Star Wars Universe.
     
  5. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, I was discussing Star Wars, not the real world or real people.
    I am talking about the guy who can use the force and brought down an empire.

    Considering everything Luke had been through I think that would have helped him confront and deal with such an experience. Not the opposite.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If characters are not to be realistic, then I struggle with engaging with them. Luke was the anchor, the everyman, for the audience to identify with in the OT in this strange world. Suddenly, I'm not supposed to apply what I know of the real world and humanity to him? This is baffling to me. :shrug:

    I thought writers were to strive for more realistic characters, not less, even in fantasy settings.
     
  7. Captain of the USS Averof

    Captain of the USS Averof Commodore Commodore

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    It’s Star Wars. It’s old wizards, black knights and space princesses. It’s clear-cut good vs. evil archetypes and the Hero's Journey. It’s vintage epic fantasy and retro space opera combined. In other words it’s Star Wars. Or more accurately, it used to be Star Wars.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And it should never, ever, ever change? Not ok for me. TFA and TLJ were just as Star Wars as anything else that came before.
     
  9. EnsignRicky

    EnsignRicky Commodore Commodore

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    Precisely. Star Wars has it's own style as distinct as Shakespeare or Disco.
    The Force Awakens wasn't too bad but this last fiasco feels exactly like it was written by someone trained in the style of modern binge quality television. Grim stuff with lots of gotcha moments and and devastating consequences around every corner; But very little in the way of re-watch value.

    Star Wars isn't about pessimism, it's about optimism. It's about hope.
     
  10. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So what happens after the hero had finished his Hero's Journey? And its been like two or three decades since then?

    Even within The Last Jedi, Luke talks about being a legend and how legends don't always mesh up with what you think they are. Luke is disappointed with himself and expects Rey to be disappointed as well. Kylo is disappointed in Han and expects Rey to be disappointed in him as well given what he tells her while they are connected in TFA. The point was that these heroes are still human, and have the flaws that come with being human. Otherwise you wouldn't get arcs like the rise and fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

    And while the Resistance loses hope for a lot of the film, they gain it back by the end of the film. As does the galaxy in general, thanks to the efforts of Luke Skywalker and Rey. The tale of Luke Skywalker will be retold over and over again, and the Resistance has their new hero/Jedi in Rey, who saved them all at the last minute while Master Skywalker was distracting the First Order. By the end, Luke and Rey became the Jedi of Legends Luke had scoffed at early in the film. The Jedi that would walk out in front of the entire First Order, and the Jedi who lifts rocks to save people. Neither was the Jedi who lead the Army to War like the Jedi of the Clone Wars were. These were the Legendary Jedi of the Old Republic. And their stories will be told.
     
  11. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You say that like characters can't transition from one archetype to another at different parts of their story, or even as they appear in stories centred around different characters. Perspectives shift. Circumstances change. Context matters.

    Was King Arthur always the young brave warrior who united a kingdom in all of his story's various tellings? No, he was also a lowly and unremarkable orphaned boy called "Wart" and an elder statesman, war weary and barely able to hold what he had built together before dying in battle.

    Honestly I find the notion that a character should never change over the course of their lives to be pretty moronic and betrays an ignorance of basic story telling. "One upon a time, there was a Kingdom where nobody did anything different and nothing ever changed. The End!" :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And Empire?
     
  13. EnsignRicky

    EnsignRicky Commodore Commodore

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    With The Force Awakens JJ at least knew his limitations and kept it as superficial as possible. This for the most part worked.

    For The Last Jedi, Rian tried to go TOO deep. Rian went full retard.
     
  14. Hela

    Hela Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Then TLJ fits right in. Because Luke is now a mix of Arthur and Merlin.

    His ‘fall’ and exile hews pretty close to most versions of Merlin’s ultimate fate, minus the blindingly misogynistic aspect. He ages, and loses his spark. The ‘rule’ he works so hard to install, ultimately falls. The pretty princess turns out to have no interest in playing benevolent wife and queen. His friends and allies die one by one.

    Ben is Luke’s version of Nimue (or whoever the traitorous student was in various versions) and Mordred: the catalyst for his hubris, and the opponent he kills himself to defeat.

    The comparison is even closer if you consider the versions of the story where Mordred is Arthur’s unrecognised son. Being both his blood, and the villain he literally created for himself through an error in judgement.

    Has Game of Thrones reputation for deconstruction made people forget that most epic fantasy didn’t end with sunshine and rainbows for everyone? The Lord of the Rings movies only finished a decade ago, and even they ended with close friendships permanently splitting, and magic leaving the world. Frodo himself was unable to reassimlate into society, suffered permanent pain from his injuries, had PTSD, and finally (sorta) died.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  15. Xerxes82

    Xerxes82 Commander Red Shirt

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    Which then makes TLJ perfect Star Wars. Because in spite of all the awful things that happen to, and in large part because of, our cast, TLJ is the most explicitly hopeful Star Wars film since RotJ, and probably since ANH. The entire conceit of the movie is that hope is waning, fading, and dying, only to be explosively and triumphantly restored at the film's climax. This is not a cynical or pessimistic film in the least. Victory has a cost. Heroes can fail, lose, even die. No peace lasts forever. But hope lives on.
     
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  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So, we want more superficiality? Is that it?
    Yes, it really has. We live in the golden age of forgetting that literature has been doing these things for thousands of years, that "happily ever after" was a rare thing. Robin Hood, Arthur, The Three Musketeers, Beowulf, they don't get happily ever after. We live in a highly spurious, highly cynical, highly superficial realm where heroes don't have to face difficulties.

    “Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.”
     
  17. Hela

    Hela Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wow. Didn’t notice we had an unironic use of ‘full retard’ up there. How classy.

    I can’t imagine why some posters keeps receiving jabs about their ability to communicate like mature, sane adults. Must be because of their taste in movies.
     
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  18. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The movie never said anything about Obi-Wan's age, you might be thinking of a book.
     
  19. EnsignRicky

    EnsignRicky Commodore Commodore

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    Wow, words and stuff. I shudder to think of the jabs I would have recieved if you had noticed.

    Yeah, no.
     
  20. Hela

    Hela Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ah. Spends days ventingbtheir feelings via writing, uses a slur, then follows it up with ‘ho ho, it’s just words and stuff.’ Classic move.

    And that would ring a lot stronger if there wasn’t currently three threads that include your whining about people picking in poor little you.

    Didn’t even they contradict each other on that?

    For eg. I’m fairly certain the Jedi Apprentice ones ended up not fitting very well with the rest. They had Obi-Wan forced has to restart his...Padawanship(?) a couple of times over, and implied he was a fair bit older than his peers.

    But in the TPM novelisation (and the movie itself), Obi-Wan is surprised that Qui-Gon thinks he’s ready to become a Knight. Implying he’s either younger than average, doesn’t have as much experience, or possesses some truly horrible self esteem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018