What happened after Voyager returned home?

[Withers]

Besides, Kes isn't in anyway important to Voyager or the crew upon returning home or their lives there after.

How many times is she even mentioned after she leaves the show outside of that episode where she returns all pissed off and mad? While I never particularly cared for Kes I always thought the crew (which was supposed to like her) got over her departure rather... hmm, instantaneously? I mean I didn't want to see them wandering the corridors pining or anything but a mention of her every now and again by the Captain wouldn't have hurt anything... but then when you get a new, larger breasted pet like Seven of Nine, I guess it's hard to appreciate what came before.

-Withers-​

 

[exodus]

How many times is she even mentioned after she leaves the show outside of that episode where she returns all pissed off and mad?

3x after "The Gift".

"Random Thoughts"
"Mortal Coil"
"Voyager Conspiracy"

 

[Lynx]

I agree.

Plus, "Fury" showed us Kes in the stages of the Mor-Elogium, when Ocampians are entering the final stages of her life.

"Coldfire" stated that prolonged life for an Ocampian was only capible via "technology created by Susperia."

So it is written, so shall it be done.

Kes is long dead.

Rubbish!

And so was "Fury". A crappy episode featuring a morbid creature which had nothing to do with the real Kes. Besides that, an energy being with such powers should not age. Another mistake from the clever "writers".

"Cold Fire" stated that it was possible to prolong Kes's lifespan. Period!

Not to mention that the good, old Doc or Q could have come up with something.

As it's been stated before:

"Still alive, still alive, still alive and well
Still alive, still alive, still alive and well!"

Sorry, what's been in the show doesn't co-inside with anything you've said. I choose to stick with those that created, developed and wrote for the character as fact. Kes is Kes. There is no "real" vs "fake" Kes. Just as they explained Kes didn't become an energy being, she instead found "Exosha" as also explained in "Coldfire".

Besides, Kes isn't in anyway important to Voyager or the crew upon returning home or their lives there after.

She's one of the main characters and as such important.

Those who created, developed(?) and wrote for the character came up with too many flaws which makes certain things unbelievable or at least doubtful. Besides that, they deliberately insulted the fans of the character with the crap episode "Fury". Therefore their actions are defied by the Kes fans who prefer their own interpretation of the events. In fact, many of us have managed to come up with what those well-paid creators weren't able to, which is good Kes stories.

It's never been stated that Kes died or where about to die. Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax died, Kes didn't. Therefore there is a clear possibility that she's "still alive and well".

 

[Withers]

3x after "The Gift".

"Random Thoughts"
"Mortal Coil"
"Voyager Conspiracy"

I retract my previous statement; three times is way more than enough.

-Withers-​

 

[Lynx]

Besides, Kes isn't in anyway important to Voyager or the crew upon returning home or their lives there after.

How many times is she even mentioned after she leaves the show outside of that episode where she returns all pissed off and mad? While I never particularly cared for Kes I always thought the crew (which was supposed to like her) got over her departure rather... hmm, instantaneously? I mean I didn't want to see them wandering the corridors pining or anything but a mention of her every now and again by the Captain wouldn't have hurt anything... but then when you get a new, larger breasted pet like Seven of Nine, I guess it's hard to appreciate what came before.

-Withers-​

Kes became a victim of the "1984 syndrome".

Which means when someone is purged and shoved out, the person cease to exist and, even more important, has never existed.

As we could see, Kes was hardly mentioned after "The Gift". The Hydroponics Bay in which she did grow fruit and vegetables for the crew, an important source of food, was turned into a Dracula's den for potential enemies. Obviously the food problem stopped there and then too, maybe Neelix came up with some fast-growing Leola Root in his quarters or maybe Seven did breast-feed them, who knows.

Not to mention The Doctor who suddenly didn't need an assistant anymore.

When it comes to the writers, maybe their 1984-inspired actions in this case had something to do with them knowing deep in their hearts that what they did was wrong and a way to get rid of all that was to pretend that the character never existed in the first place, at least until they discovered that the fans of the character were blasphemous enough to protest against the action. Then it became very urgent to bring back the character and finally ruin her, just to show "the finger" to those ungrateful Kes fans.

Just my theory.

 

[exodus]

Those who created, developed(?) and wrote for the character came up with too many flaws which makes certain things unbelievable or at least doubtful. Besides that, they deliberately insulted the fans of the character with the crap episode "Fury". Therefore their actions are defied by the Kes fans who prefer their own interpretation of the events. In fact, many of us have managed to come up with what those well-paid creators weren't able to, which is good Kes stories.

Well if they can make up their own interpretation about Kes regardless of what's actually written, then those that do follow canon can also believe she's dead.

 

[Lynx]

Those who created, developed(?) and wrote for the character came up with too many flaws which makes certain things unbelievable or at least doubtful. Besides that, they deliberately insulted the fans of the character with the crap episode "Fury". Therefore their actions are defied by the Kes fans who prefer their own interpretation of the events. In fact, many of us have managed to come up with what those well-paid creators weren't able to, which is good Kes stories.

Well if they can make up their own interpretation about Kes regardless of what's actually written, then those that do follow canon can also believe she's dead.

I'm sure that those who have expressed their hate and dislike of the character will use that option to rub salt or acid in the wounds of those who happen to like the character. But that won't change our opinion or our attempts to find a good solution of the problem.

 

[exodus]

Those who created, developed(?) and wrote for the character came up with too many flaws which makes certain things unbelievable or at least doubtful. Besides that, they deliberately insulted the fans of the character with the crap episode "Fury". Therefore their actions are defied by the Kes fans who prefer their own interpretation of the events. In fact, many of us have managed to come up with what those well-paid creators weren't able to, which is good Kes stories.

Well if they can make up their own interpretation about Kes regardless of what's actually written, then those that do follow canon can also believe she's dead.

I'm sure that those who have expressed their hate and dislike of the character will use that option to rub salt or acid in the wounds of those who happen to like the character. But that won't change our opinion or our attempts to find a good solution of the problem.

Heaven forbid anyone not liking Kes.
Last I checked, fans didn't have a monopoly on any TV show or the characters there in either.
So Kes fans will be in for many, many years of disappointments.

 

[Withers]

I didn't especially dislike Kes. For her archetype she wasn't anywhere near as annoying as she might have been and anything I ever disliked about her I dismissed with the statement "Well, at least she isn't Neelix II."

I also thought the episode where they brought her back was...just terrible. All of the other Trek characters who get "resurrected" get a ceremonious or respectful send off at the end. Look at Tasha Yar; she gets the chance to go back and restore history to its proper path. Look at Dax; she comes back as Ezri who goes on to do great deeds in the name of the Federation.

Then, there's Kes, who they bring back and turn into a monster. At that point my thought was "What the hell? Just leave her 'out there' for Christ sake." How irritated would I have been if they'd brought Dax back as a "zombie monster" all pissed off at Sisko for not having saved her? Very irritated!

So I can kind of understand where the upset about Kes comes from. 3 mentions of her post her death on a show that seemingly went out of its way to ignore its own history is a lot though. In that regard I feel like they satisfied their "quota." (I mean we're talking about a show that created and then eliminated characters in the same episode.)

-Withers-​

 

[T.D. Possum]

Three mentions of Kes post-death? Hmmm. If I'm not mistaken, that's the same number of times Neelix's lung was mentioned after his . . . de-lung-ing. (And even that one lung belonged to poor Kes originally.) That's just cold, man.

 

[exodus]

I didn't especially dislike Kes. For her archetype she wasn't anywhere near as annoying as she might have been and anything I ever disliked about her I dismissed with the statement "Well, at least she isn't Neelix II."

I also thought the episode where they brought her back was...just terrible. All of the other Trek characters who get "resurrected" get a ceremonious or respectful send off at the end. Look at Tasha Yar; she gets the chance to go back and restore history to its proper path. Look at Dax; she comes back as Ezri who goes on to do great deeds in the name of the Federation.

Then, there's Kes, who they bring back and turn into a monster. At that point my thought was "What the hell? Just leave her 'out there' for Christ sake." How irritated would I have been if they'd brought Dax back as a "zombie monster" all pissed off at Sisko for not having saved her? Very irritated!

So I can kind of understand where the upset about Kes comes from. 3 mentions of her post her death on a show that seemingly went out of its way to ignore its own history is a lot though. In that regard I feel like they satisfied their "quota." (I mean we're talking about a show that created and then eliminated characters in the same episode.)

-Withers-​

I think It's because it ep. has too many elements in what it's about.
It's not about Kes being a monster, it's about Kes growing old and suffering from the Ocampia equivalent of Alzhimers.

Kes has dementia and doesn't clearly remember much of her time with her friends on Voyager. What I think confuses that message is the time travel element. It detracts away from Kes' actions because if you focus on that alone you can see the signs of her senility. The whole point is, Kes is growing older and wants to go home to live out the rest of her life with her people. The ep. is a bookend to "Coldfire" & "Elogium". You have to pay attention to the hologram of Kes at the end. She tells old Kes to "remember" who you are, "remember" who you used to be. Lien's acting is top notch in it, the way she displays the expressions of someone going senile.

 

[Withers]

I don't remember anything about this particular detail. I was only told that she was mentioned three times after she departed the show. Were they all in reference to Neelixs' lung? I mean if that's the case then I don't feel its the same thing. I'm talking about straight up, "Yeah, that was sure a lot of fun with Kes," mentions not "Thank god for this extra lung... that came from that short haired chick we dumped just as Seven of Nine came along."

But if it was three legitimate mentions then that's enough. Consider that this is the show that introduced the Equinox crew and then never mentioned them again. They were on board and they were never heard from again. (And that's just one example.) So if she got three post leaving I say that's 300% more than a lot of characters got.

-Withers-​

 

[Lynx]

Well if they can make up their own interpretation about Kes regardless of what's actually written, then those that do follow canon can also believe she's dead.

I'm sure that those who have expressed their hate and dislike of the character will use that option to rub salt or acid in the wounds of those who happen to like the character. But that won't change our opinion or our attempts to find a good solution of the problem.

Heaven forbid anyone not liking Kes.
Last I checked, fans didn't have a monopoly on any TV show or the characters there in either.
So Kes fans will be in for many, many years of disappointments.

Let me put it this way: If you're out in the wilderness and find the wreck of an old abandoned vintage car, I guess no one will complain if you find a way to transport the old wreck back home and restore it to its former beauty.

Since those who were in charge of the show didn't respect the Kes fans, I see no reason to respect those in charge either and I see no reason to accept their insulting solutions for the character.

As for dissapointments, most of Star Trek is a dissapointment right now. I don't like the "Abrams Trek Universe" and the relaunch books sucks big time. In fact, I rather watch that Voyager rip-off "Stargate Universe" with it's bland and bickering characters than read the current relaunch books.

Withers wrote:

I didn't especially dislike Kes. For her archetype she wasn't anywhere near as annoying as she might have been and anything I ever disliked about her I dismissed with the statement "Well, at least she isn't Neelix II."

I also thought the episode where they brought her back was...just terrible. All of the other Trek characters who get "resurrected" get a ceremonious or respectful send off at the end. Look at Tasha Yar; she gets the chance to go back and restore history to its proper path. Look at Dax; she comes back as Ezri who goes on to do great deeds in the name of the Federation.

Then, there's Kes, who they bring back and turn into a monster. At that point my thought was "What the hell? Just leave her 'out there' for Christ sake." How irritated would I have been if they'd brought Dax back as a "zombie monster" all pissed off at Sisko for not having saved her? Very irritated!

So I can kind of understand where the upset about Kes comes from. 3 mentions of her post her death on a show that seemingly went out of its way to ignore its own history is a lot though. In that regard I feel like they satisfied their "quota." (I mean we're talking about a show that created and then eliminated characters in the same episode.)

I agree with most of what you have written here.

 

[exodus]

I'm sure that those who have expressed their hate and dislike of the character will use that option to rub salt or acid in the wounds of those who happen to like the character. But that won't change our opinion or our attempts to find a good solution of the problem.

Heaven forbid anyone not liking Kes.
Last I checked, fans didn't have a monopoly on any TV show or the characters there in either.
So Kes fans will be in for many, many years of disappointments.

Let me put it this way: If you're out in the wilderness and find the wreck of an old abandoned vintage car, I guess no one will complain if you find a way to transport the old wreck back home and restore it to its former beauty.

Since those who were in charge of the show didn't respect the Kes fans, I see no reason to respect those in charge either and I see no reason to accept their insulting solutions for the character.

As for dissapointments, most of Star Trek is a dissapointment right now. I don't like the "Abrams Trek Universe" and the relaunch books sucks big time. In fact, I rather watch that Voyager rip-off "Stargate Universe" with it's bland and bickering characters than read the current relaunch books.

Ok, and......
If you wanna watch "Stargate Universe" over Trek, that your choice.
Nobody is punishing you or forcing you to do anything you don't want too.

 

[Withers]

I think It's because it ep. has too many elements in what it's about.
It's not about Kes being a monster, it's about Kes growing old and suffering from the Ocampia equivalent of Alzhimers.

Kes has dementia and doesn't clearly remember much of her time with her friends on Voyager. What I think confuses that message is the time travel element. It detracts away from Kes' actions because if you focus on that alone you can see the signs of her senility. The whole point is, Kes is growing older and wants to go home to live out the rest of her life with her people. The ep. is a bookend to "Coldfire" & "Elogium". You have to pay attention to the hologram of Kes at the end. She tells old Kes to "remember" who you are, "remember" who you used to be. Lien's acting is top notch in it, the way she displays the expressions of someone going senile.

Sure, acting was fine and all, but if you really like a character is what you want to see as their final act their suffering from the equivalent of Alzheimer's, bitter over the events of her life, and hostile toward the people she once thought of as family? Just seems... mean of the writers to do.

Why not bring Kes back as an unlikely hero- a being who has reached a higher plane of existence and has been guarding Voyager all along from the distance of an ethereal place or something like that?

I dunno, maybe that's a horrible idea, but the point is they could have done anything they wanted and what they chose to do was awful (Kes fans seem to think so and people indifferent to Kes, well, at least me, think so.)

-Withers-​

 

[exodus]

I think It's because it ep. has too many elements in what it's about.
It's not about Kes being a monster, it's about Kes growing old and suffering from the Ocampia equivalent of Alzhimers.

Kes has dementia and doesn't clearly remember much of her time with her friends on Voyager. What I think confuses that message is the time travel element. It detracts away from Kes' actions because if you focus on that alone you can see the signs of her senility. The whole point is, Kes is growing older and wants to go home to live out the rest of her life with her people. The ep. is a bookend to "Coldfire" & "Elogium". You have to pay attention to the hologram of Kes at the end. She tells old Kes to "remember" who you are, "remember" who you used to be. Lien's acting is top notch in it, the way she displays the expressions of someone going senile.

Sure, acting was fine and all, but if you really like a character is what you want to see as their final act their suffering from the equivalent of Alzheimer's, bitter over the events of her life, and hostile toward the people she once thought of as family? Just seems... mean of the writers to do.

Why not bring Kes back as an unlikely hero- a being who has reached a higher plane of existence and has been guarding Voyager all along from the distance of an ethereal place or something like that?

I dunno, maybe that's a horrible idea, but the point is they could have done anything they wanted and what they chose to do was awful (Kes fans seem to think so and people indifferent to Kes, well, at least me, think so.)

-Withers-​

Everybody has an opinion & point of view.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.

It was just an aspect of Kes' short life span that they could explore that wasn't available with any other character.
What if one of the writers knew some family member suffering from it and wanted to convey the illness thru this story? I don't feel they wrote the story with the intent to upset anybody. Jen Lien read the script and accepted it, if she felt it did the character any injustice she had the choice to turn it down. The writers could have scrapped the story completely but some how, some one felt this story needed to be done.

Fans complain how Voyager wasn't realistic enough. The ship is never torn up, the crew isn't desperate enough for energy but when the writers give us a real veiw of growing old, then it's considered mean and cruel? It's ok to want Neelix or Harry dead but it's wrong to give Kes Alzhimers? Nobody complained about the little holo girl dying in "Real Life". Doubt anyone would have complained if they killed off one or all of the Borg kids either. Yet Kes, a character many didn't miss and some expressed joy at seeing her go is an issue?

However, what's done is done and it's in the past now.

 

[T.D. Possum]

I was only told that she was mentioned three times after she departed the show. Were they all in reference to Neelixs' lung?

Oh, no, I phrased that really badly, I guess. The lung remarks were totally separate. I've just been counting them because it struck me as funny that the writers could remember about Neelix's lung but not about so many other important things.

But I do think there are the same number of the lung remarks and the "Oh, I remember Kes" remarks.

 

[Withers]

Everybody has an opinion & point of view.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Except that the only people who were going to be moved by the reappearance of Kes were fans of Kes. How silly does it seem to make an episode for Kes fans that obliterates everything about the character that was established during her time on Voyager?

"Happy Birthday! We will celebrate by destroying all evidence that you ever existed! Hooray!"

Fans complain how Voyager wasn't realistic enough. The ship is never torn up, the crew isn't desperate enough for energy but when the writers give us a real veiw of growing old, then it's considered mean and cruel?

First of all these are two wildly separate issues. Voyager never being resupplied or damaged very significantly is a legitimate complaint. You're saying that I should be appeased in my want for realism by their "realistic" portrayal of Kes' aging? Well, by that logic, a shot of Harry Kim taking a crap should appease me too. It wouldn't.

It's ok to want Neelix or Harry dead

Yes.

it's wrong to give Kes Alzhimers?

Yes.

Nobody complained about the little holo girl dying in "Real Life".

I don't even know who you're talking about but either way whoever holo girl is didn't have three years to establish herself and grow a fan base (it might be small but the Kes lovers are out there.)

Doubt anyone would have complained if they killed off one or all of the Borg kids either.

Probably not. They had probably 1/4 the screen time Kes did and it was split between the lot of them. It isn't the same thing.

Yet Kes, a character many didn't miss and some expressed joy at seeing her go is an issue?

Resurrecting her in the fashion in which they did was an issue, yes. While I think most people don't really care about Kes one way or the other, the episode was made with the knowledge that the only people who would really be moved by it were the fans of Kes. Depicting her as they did was objectionable to said fans (and to those of us who can grasp their objections) based on the fact that if they were going to resurrect her they could have gone in so many different, better ways.

However, what's done is done and it's in the past now.

Let's shut the subforum down. Hell, let's just shut everything down except the XI and Future of Trek subforum eh?

-Withers-​

 

[exodus]

Except that the only people who were going to be moved by the reappearance of Kes were fans of Kes. How silly does it seem to make an episode for Kes fans that obliterates everything about the character that was established during her time on Voyager?

Just as silly as it is to believe that show already struggling to maintain an audience and boost it's ratings would purposely drive way more of it's audience and the actress that played the character would return to go along with it to piss off her fans as well as the shows.

 

[Withers]

You quoted the sentence but by your comment I can't help but ask whether or not you actually read it. Where in that did I say anything about their intent? I only commented on what they did. The result was, in fact, pissing off her fans, but I never said that was their intent... though one does wonder just what they were thinking.

-Withers-​