What DON’T you like about the show?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Lower Decks' started by Nenya, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, it had nothing to do with that. It was just a way to breathe new life into a floundering franchise.
    Seriously? Starfleet's a pretty messed up place, canonically speaking when you think about it. Just look at how many Captains and Admirals turn out to be evil renegades. But suddenly we see a ship where the senior officers are self absorbed assholes always ignoring and disrespecting their crew and suddenly that's all "NO! That doesn't happen in Star Trek!"?
     
  2. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    Eh, I'm glad they kept with Prime. I will say Discovery could take place in either universe.

    Without the power of science to defend us, the galaxy of Star Trek would give Lovecraft nightmares. No wonder so many humans break under the strain.
     
  3. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How many captains and admirals were 'evil renegades'?
    We may have 3 examples from TNG.
    In Kirk's era, high ranking officials conspired with the Romulans to prevent a Federation/Klingon treaty... that's the biggest.
    But in 24th century, I don't exactly recall 'evil renegades'.
    From Voyager... Janeway wasn't a renegade.
    Ransom technically became one due to suffering a huge loss in crew and he started murdering alien beings to get home quicker... but he was also portrayed as relatively 'weak' personality wise (he chose not to uphold the principles and ideals of the Federation), so its not unusual for a captain like him to 'crack'... maybe that's why he was given command of a planetary survey ship and not something more higher profile.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Admiral Leyton. Admiral Pressman. Admiral Sati's witch hunt. Admiral Kenelly. Admiral Jamison.
     
  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Captain Tracy
    Captain Garth
    Admiral Cartwright
    Admiral "Colonel" West
    Admiral Jamieson
    Captain Maxwell
    Admiral Kennelly
    Admiral Pressman
    Admiral Dougherty
    Admiral Leyton
    Captain Benteen
    Captain Ransom
    Admiral Marcus
    Commodore Oh

    And then there's the ambiguous ones. Kirk wasn't evil, but as an Admiral he did get executive discipline straight from the Federation President. Picard has something like nine violations of the Prime Directive on record as of TNG season 4. Sisko was an accessory to the murder of a Romulan Senator. Admiral Ross worked with Section 31. There's Captain Edison, though he didn't really go full on evil until a hundred years after he was presumed dead. Captain Lorca, though that was his Mirror self posing as his Prime self. Admiral Cornwell did plot genocide, though that was with the approval of the Federation Council
     
  6. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Commodore Oh was a Romulan Tal'Shiar operative... so that one doesn't count.

    Captain Benteen... can she be classified as an 'evil renegade'?
    She was following Leyton's orders and operated on false info thinking there were changelings on the Defiant (and ended up standing down in the end to escort the Defiant to Earth). Sisko himself mentioned Benteen abandoned Leyton.

    Pressman... not sure about him being an evil renegade since what he did was technically sanctioned.
    I know the Federation is prohibited from using cloaking devices yes, but there may be a loophole for them so they can conduct research into how new potential cloaking devices would work allowing them to develop a counter to that (but not actually use said devices on their starships).
    Its a bit of a grey area open to interpretation, though Pressman went an extra mile in actually using it on a starship (which is what the crew mutinied about)... albeit, an overload was what caused the experiment to fail and cause all those deaths.
    He was in the wrong on using the cloak on an actual starship... but the underlying premise of developing the thing and not using it on ships should have been doable.

    Admiral Marcus was basically Section 31 if I'm not mistaken... and that organisation thinks they're above Federation law and should answer to no one... not sure if that one technically counts... though he certainly fit the bill of an 'aggressive militaristic prick'.

    Captain Maxwell did turn out to be correct about the Cardassians, but he went about it completely wrong and I agree he went rogue what with destroying Cardassian ships and endangering the peace treaty.

    Leyton didn't have a track record of being a renegade prior to instigating a coup... he ended up paranoid due to Changelings and looming conflict with the Dominion, but in the end he did turn renegade.

    Kennelly didn't strike me as a renegade... more like an idiot for allowing himself to be manipulated by the Cardassians and also for illegally doing things. Wouldn't you as an Admiral share what the Cardassians said in order to try and corroborate it?
    Sounds to me the writers made this one lacking in basic fact checking and prone to making assumptions... and in the end, he was court marshaled.

    All others more or less yes... but there have been few instances on the whole... spread throughout 200 years.
    Not sure I'd say its an indication of a larger problem, but its certainly one the writers need to pay closer attention to as this kind of behavior emerging doesn't fit what we were told about the Federation in the first place (and no, there is no such thing as 'human nature' - behavior doesn't arise from vacuum - its prompted by environment).

    If the Federation as a whole was indeed corrupt and not what it was claimed to be, then exposures of these people and their actions would likely not have led to court marshals in the first place.
    The fact they had to do a lot of it in secret demonstrates that majority of people wouldn't allow it.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    All it does is indicate that for all the moralizing people do bad things. If that's not human nature then something about the environment prompted such behavior to be considered. Which means there is still a strain of immoral behavior in the Federation.
     
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  8. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While I am loving this series, there are times that Mariner is REALLY unlikeable. Despite this being a comedy, it does feel odd that she hasn't been cashiered out of the service by now, especially after watching "Moist Vessel".

    (Though it's very likely her actions during the crisis were her saving grace... likely can be said about any of her other infractions.)
     
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  9. Shawnster

    Shawnster Commodore Commodore

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    So much that Shakespeare's plays are completely incomprehensible. Who can understand the motivations of any of his characters? Talk about unrecognizable.
     
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  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nepotism.
     
  11. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    What I hate most about this show?

    That episode 4 was not called, "Moist Wessels."

    Kind of reversed. Her mother wants her OFF the ship.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But her dad doesn't..

    And all I can think of is the scene from Down Periscope. "My old man won't let me. He's an *extreme sarcasm voice* admiral. He thinks sub duty will shape me up. HA!"
     
  13. Lakenheath 72

    Lakenheath 72 Commodore Commodore

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    Two things: the references and the slangs. When I watch the show, I am feel that I am being smothered in fanwankery. As for slang, if not used sparingly, it can turn a show from being timeless to a relic as tastes change.
     
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  14. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Not much.

    I can't think of time in any of the other series where I liked five consecutive episodes this much.

    It's funny as hell. The references are perfectly done. And it iterates many of the growing feelings I've had for the franchise and its fandom in the last few years.
     
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  15. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Agreed. I haven’t watched 5 yet but the first four were great and most of the underlying uncertainty seems to have vanished after the first two episodes. Very nice!
     
  16. Francis Tonay

    Francis Tonay Ensign Red Shirt

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    If there was No Fanwank, there would be The Complaining.
    "It's Not Star Trek."

    Star Trek No Fanwank
    Where No Fanwank has never gone before
     
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  17. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    How doesn't it? According to the backstory as laid out in Picard, Commodore Oh still entered Starfleet legitimately by attending the Academy and working her ways up the rank ladder eventually becoming a Commodore and head of Starfleet Security. The fact she did so while serving Romulan Intelligence is immaterial to the matter, and if anything makes Starfleet look even worse, if an enemy spy could infiltrate the organization, spend decades among them and eventually end up as head of their security branch.
    Benteen knew Leyton was planning a coup and helped him plan everything out. Yes, Leyton told her the Defiant was crewed by Changelings, but she should have known him well enough to know that was just a convenient excuse for the official record. Regardless, she didn't abandon Leyton until the last moment when the Defiant was a few shots away from destroying her ship and thereby killing her and her crew.
    And with the officer who sanctioned him also under arrest and investigation at the end of the episode, that just adds another Admiral who can be listed as a renegade.
    What Section 31 thinks of itself is immaterial to Marcus's actions making him a renegade.
    That's still enough to classify him a renegade.
     
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  18. Shawnster

    Shawnster Commodore Commodore

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    As I mentioned in another topic, I don't like the constant callbacks to previous Treks, particularly to specific people and specific events. It's unrealistic. In daily conversations people do not routinely refer to people and events from 200 years ago. Not in casual conversation or throwaway colloquial expressions.

    Some callbacks would be natural. A reference to a Suliban or a Gorn would make sense as those species are contemporaneous. Some obscure reference to Kirk (all the time) just to name drop is getting ridonkulous.
     
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  19. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    I think the constant referencing is actually a reference to Joss Whedon. The weirdness is that they're referencing history versus media.
     
  20. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    [​IMG]
     
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