Spoilers What do you think of Lorca's Arc?

[eschaton]

Even if we're supposed to identify with her, IOW, her motivations in ep 13 seem incredibly shallow and just don't ring true.

Yeah, I agree it was garbage. The writers must have had headcanon which made this all seem more convincing. I also think that (similar to Dukat in DS9) Lorca was written to be more of a shitheel, and Isaac's natural charisma in earlier episodes made him not come across as menacing as the writers intended. The writers don't actually direct the action after all.

People accused him of that (sending Cornwell to her death) when the episode was broadcast, and I found the charge just as inexplicable then as I do now. Consider:

I think that argument centers not around letting Cornwell go on the mission, but on not going to rescue Cornwell once it was clear she was kidnapped. Of course, Cornwell had just dressed Lorca down about not "going rogue" any longer, so at the time it could have been taken to mean he was taking her orders to heart.

 

[O_Kav]

Cornwell volunteered for the mission of her own volition. She, like Sarek (a smart and experienced diplomat), believed that the Klingon meeting was potentially a serious chance for negotiations, not just a trap.

He's the one who suggested Cornwell should go. Any Captain in Star Trek would suggest themselves to go instead of the Admiral, considering all the risks involved. He didn't even try. It's just too damn convenient that he gave that suggestion after he knew his career was finished. Besides, Jason's speech pattern and his expressions when Lorca was talking to Burnham really look like something coming out of a person who is trying to sell a lie.

• Cornwell outranked Lorca. If she didn't want to go there's no way he could have forced her, and conversely, if she did want to go, there's no way he could have stopped her.

• Really, the worst one could accuse Lorca of is not trying harder to argue her out of it. But objectively, he had no way of knowing it was a trap any more than Cornwell or Sarek.

He's the Captain of a Starship. He's the one who knows operational status and the one most qualified to determine the safety of missions. She may outrank him, but he's the one more capable of making field decisions in this case. Even if he didn't know that the Klingons would back stab Starfleet, he knew that Nebula almost cost the life of an Ambassador and that the exploding Logic Extremist was too far coincidental, especially during a time of war. Any decent Captain would call off the Mission. The Admiral would most probably listen. It was his duty to counsel her correctly about field status and he failed to do so. On purpose.

It's completely consistent with him being just a somewhat obsessive captain who takes an opportunity when he sees it.

I mean, one thing is being opportunistic and obsessive the other is being a traitor. I don't know how sending someone who threatened your career to their death and refusing to rescue them afterwards makes Lorca anything other than an evil shitheel. I never saw this "broken man" people talk so much about. He was never broke, he always was beyond fucked up.

 

[lawman]

Yeah, I agree it was garbage. The writers must have had headcanon which made this all seem more convincing. I also think that (similar to Dukat in DS9) Lorca was written to be more of a shitheel, and Isaac's natural charisma in earlier episodes made him not come across as menacing as the writers intended. The writers don't actually direct the action after all.

I have to wonder, exactly how far in advance did they actually write these things? IOW, how many of Isaac's performances had the writers had a chance to actually see before they wrote the villain reveal?

In general I'm a big fan of today's television trends of short, "bingeable" seasons and serialized storytelling... but this is a case where I can see how having a longer season and more time to develop stories would have made it easier to calibrate the storytelling to how things were actually working on screen.

 

[waxon]

...

I mean, what Lorca did trying to save the Gagarin doesn't change the fact that he brutalized the Tardigrade and wanted to disembowel it so he could create armor or some other militaristic delusion like that.

But wasn't that before they learned it likely had sentience? Saru is the one who didn't care that they were torturing and could potentially kill a sentient being. You could argue he had good intentions but that doesn't change the fact he prioritised the Captain's rescue over the safety of the ship, crew and only Tardigrade that the Federation had found.

It doesn't change the fact that he authorized Landry to terrorize Burnham psychologically pitting the prisoners against her in the Mess Hall, so he could manipulate her more easily later on.

Is this fact or opinion? I don't recall seeing him authorise Landry to do any such thing. That seemed to be her doing it on her own, she didn't seem to like Burnham for some reason...

It was quite clear since the beginning Lorca was a baddie. Fans just happened to like him. And it's understandable since Jason Isaacs is likable as hell.

No, it wasn't clear to me. He seemed like an anti-hero or an antagonist. He didn't seem like a bond villian baddie.

 

[Nyotarules]

Even if it wasn't, it is still using an alien life form, potentially intelligent given that it navigates a multiverse like its nothing, as a beast of burden. Starfleet appeared to have no issue with that at all. In fact, they intend to start searching for more tardigrades right away.

Admiral Marcus must be in charge

 

[eschaton]

I have to wonder, exactly how far in advance did they actually write these things? IOW, how many of Isaac's performances had the writers had a chance to actually see before they wrote the villain reveal?

I don't know how it works now, but I know in the B&B days the writers weren't even allowed to come to shoots - they were supposed to be busy writing the rest of the season, not goofing around on set. Maybe some of them got to see the footage afterwards if they weren't busy, but that's about it.

 

[Refuge]

He went from anti-hero to zero.

Thanks for that Discovery, like thanks... like I really mean it. Yeah thanks.

 

[Captain Killy]

Here's a scary thought - Lorca is now going to surpass Dukat and become an alt-right hero. They set him up to be a competent, morally ambiguous badass captain. Then the "shocking reveal" is that he was all about MAGA (sorrry, MEGA) and human supremacy all along. And it it wasn't for a pair of feminazis of color, he would have won too.

That’s cuz Women of Color are awesome!!!

 

[lawman]

I don't know how it works now, but I know in the B&B days the writers weren't even allowed to come to shoots - they were supposed to be busy writing the rest of the season, not goofing around on set. Maybe some of them got to see the footage afterwards if they weren't busy, but that's about it.

I could see that being the case for ordinary staff writers. But the showrunners, or other writers with EP credits?...

 

[fireproof78]

I have to wonder, exactly how far in advance did they actually write these things? IOW, how many of Isaac's performances had the writers had a chance to actually see before they wrote the villain reveal?

In general I'm a big fan of today's television trends of short, "bingeable" seasons and serialized storytelling... but this is a case where I can see how having a longer season and more time to develop stories would have made it easier to calibrate the storytelling to how things were actually working on screen.

His "After Trek" interview indicates the he knew all along.

 

[Captain Killy]

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/sta...acs-1202682156/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Lorca is revealed to be someone who is pretty racist …
That’s absolutely right. The Terran world, unlike the original incarnations of the Mirror Universe where they were just a kind of one-dimensional evil, this is a world that is not very far from our very own. We could all wake up and be mirror versions of ourselves any day. It’s a very Darwinian world, and a world that from Lorca’s point of view and for millions of people with his point of view, where assimilation is a bad thing and there’s a natural hierarchy of racists. To disrespect that is to sow chaos and anarchy, and lying is a perfectly reasonable technique to get what you want. Sadly, I don’t think we need to look very far to find those these reflected in our headlines every day.

Was it important to you that his thinking be rooted in something and that he not just be a mustache-twirling villain?
Yeah, I wouldn’t have taken the job. But luckily it was important to everyone. I had no interest in playing a mustache-twirling villain and they had no interest in creating one. When we got to the mirror world, it was very important to me that the dialogue feel like it was in many ways ripped from the headlines. It’s no coincidence that I’m exhorting my followers to make the Empire great again.

 

[Zod]

What did you think of Lorca's arc? For those who already know his fate how do you think it played out overall?

He was my favorite character on the show and the most interesting. The further into the season it got the more fascinating he became. According to the producers Lorca wasn't originally supposed to come from the Mirror Universe in Bryan Fuller's original plan.Sure, he plays a flawed human in the time of the Federation but there has to be a few of em out there. Mirror Lorca was fun with spray cheese on top but maybe a more realistic conflict would have been more delectable than the "he's bad because he's from the mirror universe". The mirror arc was fun but Lorca got put away a bit too quickly after his reveal.

He was my favorite character. I was settling in to having him as the captain for the run of the show and appreciated his acting skills every time we saw him. I loved that he was a deeply flawed and not super perfect captain. I miss him already. I think his end, and the end to his plan happened way too fast. I would have liked it saved till the season finale at least. Oh well. I guess they know what they are doing. According to Forbes the show is doing well. They called it an "unstoppable monster" just today.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Isaacs is a great actor. Sad to see him go. The arc was good. MU Lorca is dead. Sword in heart & he fell into the shield (not the spore network, the shield was still up).

Got no issue with his arc. Hard to believe some on here are bummed he got revealed to be jackass. Earth to Lorca lovers: "HE WAS A D!CK THE WHOLE TIME." Everyone on Disco hated him. He willingly tortured the Tardigrade. He abandoned Cornwell. Left Mudd to die with the Klingons. His manipulation of Stamets was sickening.

The proof of how good the arc was is how upset so many Lorca fans are.

 

[fireproof78]

That’s absolutely right. The Terran world, unlike the original incarnations of the Mirror Universe where they were just a kind of one-dimensional evil, this is a world that is not very far from our very own. We could all wake up and be mirror versions of ourselves any day. It’s a very Darwinian world, and a world that from Lorca’s point of view and for millions of people with his point of view, where assimilation is a bad thing and there’s a natural hierarchy of racists. To disrespect that is to sow chaos and anarchy, and lying is a perfectly reasonable technique to get what you want. Sadly, I don’t think we need to look very far to find those these reflected in our headlines every day.

And we would love to believe that we are all past that...

 

[SolarisOne]

I guess they know what they are doing.

New fans probably can't tell the difference, anyway, and the old base is deeply divided. There are even people "hate-watching" (Internet lingo is so goddamn stupid sometimes) the show just so they can complain about it on social media and the like.

As for Lorca's arc? It had great potential, which was squandered, and then was finally spit upon at the very end. They literally turned him into a more eloquent version of the sitting U.S. President (and made him tactically stupid at the same time!) That last bit pushed me from disappointment to resentment. I can't phrase it any other way. Since seeing the episode, I have been seriously considering leaving the show behind and just reading the novels as they come out. I mean, PU Georgiou ain't ever coming back (unless they engage in some reset button bullshit), I have zero emotional attachment to the main character, and to me the others are just there, so... I'll keep watching for now, but my patience is wearing very thin at this point.

Yeah, I wouldn’t have taken the job. But luckily it was important to everyone. I had no interest in playing a mustache-twirling villain and they had no interest in creating one. When we got to the mirror world, it was very important to me that the dialogue feel like it was in many ways ripped from the headlines. It’s no coincidence that I’m exhorting my followers to make the Empire great again.

Yet, that's exactly what the hell Lorca became during his last episode. It just so happens real life has managed to produce someone frighteningly akin to that trope. Maybe PU Lorca survived or something ... though I seriously doubt he'd be as compelling as MU Lorca was before the big reveal. I guess I'll get a window into PU Lorca's characterization when Dayton Ward's new DSC novel comes out in a few days (plus more PU Georgiou. )

The proof of how good the arc was is how upset so many Lorca fans are.

THEY DID NOT HAVE TO TURN HIM INTO GODDAMN DONALD JOHN MOTHERFUCKING TRUMP AT THE END. NOT ONLY DID THEY HAVE HIM SPOUT THE IDEOLOGY, AND AT THAT VERY MOMENT THEY ALSO MADE HIM FAR DUMBER THAN HE HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY (though still not as dense as his real-life counterpart.) The man who not only survived, but owned, operating in a completely different universe for months wouldn't have made the mistakes Lorca did at the end. At the very least, he would have hakai-ed MU Georgiou into oblivion the instant Burnham dragged her before him. He knew the woman was his superior in almost every respect, but magically forgot to destroy her at the first opportunity? Give me a break!

As for Burnham, they should have had her beat him at his best. She would have really grabbed my attention in that scenario. As it was, Georgiou did most of the work, and he had made himself low-hanging fruit by that point, anyway.

In sum, even if I continue watching and come to like the show again, I will never forgive or forget them turning him into Trump. Ever.

 

[fireproof78]

^^
Whoah....

 

[SolarisOne]

^^
Whoah....

Sorry.

 

[Vger23]

The best thing about all of this with Lorca is that it actually has gotten a passionate reaction from the fans. Some love it, some hate it, some predicted it, some were shocked by it. Everyone's talking about it though. That's pure entertainment. We haven't had that for a long time.

It's great stuff. It's what fandom is all about. And, it's a helluva lot more exciting and fun than debating whether Janeway murdered Tuvix or not.

 

[gblews]

I think the thing that really bothers me is that Isaacs, presumably, would only sign for one year. That meant that his character would almost surely have to die one way or another

I wasn't happy that Lorca ended up being from the MU, but only because it pretty much confirmed Lorca's death and I did want him to continue to be the most unusua Trek captain in franchise history. But the fact that Lorca didn't turn out to be a "hard guy" with a heart of gold, which seems to be a common gripe here, bothers me less. Turns out Lorca was bad to the bone, which to me, was certainly unexpected even though it was telegraphed by the writers.

The expressions of betrayal by folks reminds me of the expressions of pain (in the Ent forum) at the revelation in Ent season 3 that T'Pol was taking the drug-like substance, Trellium-D, for personal reasons rather than for some greater good. She, like Lorca, turned out to be something she wasn't supposed to be, a "drug addict". That turn of events was also completely unexpected, and "unexpected" is not something usually associated with Trek.

Of course, we still don't know the whole season one story. Two more episodes to go.

 

[SolarisOne]

I wasn't happy that Lorca ended up being from the MU, but only because it pretty much confirmed Lorca's death and I did want him to continue to be the most unusua Trek captain in franchise history. But the fact that Lorca didn't turn out to be a "hard guy" with a heart of gold, which seems to be a common gripe here, bothers me less. Turns out Lorca was bad to the bone, which to me, was certainly unexpected even though it was telegraphed by the writers.

They could have made him a different kind of "bad guy" and I would have just felt disappointment, instead of seething anger. Something worthy of the characterization that had come before, perhaps? It was a rookie-level mistake by the writers. The whole "I'm Space DJT now!!" shtick just didn't fit, which is why they had to dumb Lorca down after the big reveal. I mean, literally the instant he said "Make the Empire ... glorious again," he started screwing up in ways he hadn't before. And, like I said before, not only did it cheapen his end, it cheapened Burnham's "victory", doing both a great disservice, in my view.