Spoilers What do you think of Lorca's Arc?

[Refuge]

There's nothing to debate anymore. Lorca became a one-dimensional has-been with the flick of a pen.

 

[Bay17]

There's nothing to debate anymore. Lorca became a one-dimensional has-been with the flick of a pen.

Destroying my enjoyment of his character development and my trust in the pen-holders at the same time

 

[ClintDagger]

Lorca carried this show, I'd go as far as to say he is the best Trek character since Picard or Data, I found him fascinating and he lit up every scene he was in.
That's why I was so disappointed by his death, for him to become a stereotypical master-plan bad guy, who was defeated all too easily, didn't really do it for me.

Where we go from here.. who knows ?

Well said. I think of it this way. I love DSC, but so far it’s been DSC WITH Lorca. What will it be without him? What would TOS be without Kirk? TNG sans Picard? Etcetera. I think the show needs something up their sleeve going forward.

 

[gblews]

They could have made him a different kind of "bad guy" and I would have just felt disappointment, instead of seething anger. Something worthy of the characterization that had come before, perhaps?

tBut there still had to be some resolution to the character's arc which took into account Isaacs' leaving the show.

So what to do with Lorca? If you don't kill him does he end up in prison, or lost somewhere? Granted, that would leave open the possibility of his return, but that possibility still exists.

I think that the character's death was the most impactful resolution. Too bad it's not the old days of Trek when, as I've read, actors were required to sign a 7 year contract before even auditioning.

 

[SolarisOne]

I think that the character's death was the most impactful resolution. Too bad it's not the old days of Trek when, as I've read, actors were required to sign a 7 year contract before even auditioning.

I'm not sure how, but I must have miscommunicated. It's not that he died, or when, or who he was killed by, or anything like that. It's what he became during the last episode leading up to that.

 

[Bay17]

Knowing that Isaacs was leaving after one year, yes sure the writers had to finalize his story and write him out of the show somehow

But in doing so they had to leave someone to fill the large boots he left behind, both as a character and as captain of the ship. Burnham can’t step into his shoes because she’s already got her own lead role to play. Plus she can’t be captain without some sort of time travel story. Cornwell maybe. Saru maybe. Georgiou unlikely, it would take more than time travel or Klingon surgery to rehab her character into Prime Georgiou

Haven’t got to the end of the season yet so we’ll soon find out. Think it will be some combination of Cornwell, Saru and a more involved bridge crew (with Burnham in the same role). And maybe Stamets

They need to give us a crew we’re happy to follow into the new season. Character complexity is fine, a few less deaths of major characters and shock reveals would be welcome. It doesn’t need to become Star Trek Continues but would be good if it settled down a little into good solid writing. We’ve had two prologues already, let’s see the crew at work

 

[Refuge]

I'm not sure how, but I must have miscommunicated. It's not that he died, or when, or who he was killed by, or anything like that. It's what he became during the last episode leading up to that.

It's left me a little 'flat'. Unlike many of his fans I wasn't a fan of him as an example of how to 'honour' Starfleet -quite the opposite. Yet he was compelling and in his damaged and dangerous persona lay the interest and several threads of discussion. Now his history is worthless. It's was like wait everyone to see why he blew up the Buran. Be patient he was probably forcibly pushed into an escape vessel etc. Ah no. Simply put that Lorca was made up in our heads, lol. Those gosh darn clever writers certainly know how to make you wish you hadn't been so stupid as to think they had developed more than a prop. That is something I will give Discovery credit for. Get on board with the Stamets/Culber relationship everyone. Okay fooled ya, that's over! Get on board with the complex Starfleet Captain everyone, ha ha he's not even that and he's dead! What next? They're going to hit a big reset? No. Wouldn't dare would they, when shows do that the fans get quite insulted

 

[SolarisOne]

Get on board with the Stamets/Culber relationship everyone.

The scenes between them were good, but I would have probably cared more if they had made Culber more than just The Boyfriend for Stamets.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's left me a little 'flat'. Unlike many of his fans I wasn't a fan of him as an example of how to 'honour' Starfleet -quite the opposite. Yet he was compelling and in his damaged and dangerous persona lay the interest and several threads of discussion. Now his history is worthless. It's was like wait everyone to see why he blew up the Buran. Be patient he was probably forcibly pushed into an escape vessel etc. Ah no. Simply put that Lorca was made up in our heads, lol. Those gosh darn clever writers certainly know how to make you wish you hadn't been so stupid as to think they had developed more than a prop. That is something I will give Discovery credit for. Get on board with the Stamets/Culber relationship everyone. Okay fooled ya, that's over! Get on board with the complex Starfleet Captain everyone, ha ha he's not even that and he's dead! What next? They're going to hit a big reset? No. Wouldn't dare would they, when shows do that the fans get quite insulted

Well said.

 

[F. King Daniel]

As a damaged Starfleet officer, doing what he thought was right he was amazing.

But make him a fiendish mirror duplicate and it's all for naught.

I'm fucked up and I loved that he was fucked up too. It showed that people with similar issues existed and could prosper in Trek's world. But no, they only exist in Trek's silly opposite universe. All humans in Star Trek must be pure. Depression and unhealthy coping mechanisms can't exist in utopia

Fuck that shit.

 

[Jayson1]

I think the arc ended up being more in our heads than what the writers were trying to do. The actor made him feel like a complex character. The writers intentions though seemed to basically use 12 episodes to set up a Donald Trump pun. He wasn't even a good stand in for Trump because he came off as competent and smart and a skilled leader. Until we get to the mirror universe and all of sudden he becomes Russell Crowe in "Virtuosity." Lot's of style and fun campy acting from a actor who is capable to doing much better work.

I really disagree with O Kav's take on the human condition. All people are complex. We don't ever really see what is going on in someone's head so we can only judge them on their actions but it's lot harder to ever really understand someones motivations. Even Donald Trump who I have called a Nazi Clown a few times has depth. We just can't see it. I hate this kind of view on humans because to me this is what kind of leads to racism,sexism realigious intolerance. Once you start seeing humans beings as being something," not quite human" or "normal" then it's easy to look at everyone like cardboard fictional beings. Even if it was true why would someone want to put so much focus on such a character in a show that has tried to sell itself as a serious drama for the modern golden age of tv? I don't recall Walter White having to deal with Ming the Merciless for a season.

Even if you want to do Donald Trump you most likely need to spend more time in that universe than 3 episodes,a great chunk of the time spent on your own ship. Georgiou actually would have most likely made a better Donald Trump, figure. She even kind of starts off that way. Eating Kelpians ties into Trump's unhealthy eating habits. Killing all her, inner circle people just to protect herself so of represents the way Trump keeps having people leave or him firing them. Make her a pervert and a descendant of Sato, thus someone born into wealth and it makes even more sense. Plus doing a gender switch with your Trump is simply more interesting than just going with the white guy.

Do this and make Lorca a mix between Hilary Clinton and Steve Bannon who thinks he can control her for his own agenda only make him someone who on the surface is fighting for equal rights and justice but in reality just wants the power and you might have something more interesting. Also this has been done before in the mirror universe. The first mirror universe episode on "Deep Space Nine" is very complex compared to all other mirror universe stories. I mean there is nothing wrong if you want to use the mirror universe for some escapism fun like they ended up doing but it shouldn't be at the cost of your best character.


Jason

 

[Jadeb]

The genius of Star Trek II, in part, is that Khan is such an interesting villain. He's clearly the baddie, and he does bad things, but you can also see his perspective. This is conflict with understandable motivation, even as Montalban hams it up on screen (in the best way possible, IMO). The battle is hard-fought, and, at the end, you've gone on a real emotional journey.

The reveal about Lorca makes him the opposite of that. I've said since the beginning that Isaacs wasn't sticking around, and I pretty much assumed he'd die by the end of the season. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with the heel-turn. But it's an insult to the work Isaacs has done to make Lorca into cardboard. You can be bad and still be a three-dimensional character.

 

[eschaton]

The genius of Star Trek II, in part, is that Khan is such an interesting villain. He's clearly the baddie, and he does bad things, but you can also see his perspective. This is conflict with understandable motivation, even as Montalban hams it up on screen (in the best way possible, IMO). The battle is hard-fought, and, at the end, you've gone on a real emotional journey.

The reveal about Lorca makes him the opposite of that. I've said since the beginning that Isaacs wasn't sticking around, and I pretty much assumed he'd die by the end of the season. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with the heel-turn. But it's an insult to the work Isaacs has done to make Lorca into cardboard. You can be bad and still be a three-dimensional character.

While I like TWOK, one of the few things which stretches credulity is Khan's actions. He isn't anywhere near as braindead as Lorca. However, he is supposed to be a super-genius who outthink Kirk without breaking a sweat. Yet we never see any sign that Khan is...well...smart.

As I said in another thread, it is a rare writer who knows how to construct a character who is smarter than they are. Particularly when it comes to attempting to have this smarter character fail in a plausible manner.

 

[Jayson1]

I think the only way they can fix this is by having him be reborn next season. Perhaps that particle on Tilly could be the way it happens. I even had this idea, partially because of what happened to Troi in season 2 of TNG that Tilly gives birth to Lorca. The baby rapidly ages to a age where you can use Isaacs again only he has somehow been purged of all the mental and social abuse that no doubt turns people into such miserable people in the mirror universe. He could represent the idea of someone getting a second chance in life after getting away from a abusive situation. Hell I would love mirror Georgiou to be a regular next season as well and show how their realtionship has also changed after basically escaping the toxic enviroment of the mirror universe. I guess Burnham could also be a third wheel in the whole situation but is also busy dealing with Captain Saru and whatever is going on next season with Tilly and Stamets.


Jason

 

[Jayson1]

While I like TWOK, one of the few things which stretches credulity is Khan's actions. He isn't anywhere near as braindead as Lorca. However, he is supposed to be a super-genius who outthink Kirk without breaking a sweat. Yet we never see any sign that Khan is...well...smart.

As I said in another thread, it is a rare writer who knows how to construct a character who is smarter than they are. Particularly when it comes to attempting to have this smarter character fail in a plausible manner.

I don't know. Khan would have won and got his revenge on Kirk if it hadn't been for Spock, saving the day and you know Spock being killed in away was him getting his revenge. Kirk would have gladly died to save Spock. Khan died in his mission of revenge but i'm not so sure if that mattered to him. I think he wanted Kirk dead so much that he didn't care if he lived or died. Like his lackey points out he could have easily took off with the genius device and did who knows what in the galaxy. He instead wanted his revenge.

Jason

 

[Jadeb]

I don't know. Khan would have won and got his revenge on Kirk if it hadn't been for Spock, saving the day and you know Spock being killed in away was him getting his revenge. Kirk would have gladly died to save Spock. Khan died in his mission of revenge but i'm not so sure if that mattered to him. I think he wanted Kirk dead so much that he didn't care if he lived or died. Like his lackey points out he could have easily took off with the genius device and did who knows what in the galaxy. He instead wanted his revenge.

Yeah, I can buy the notion that Khan's thinking is clouded by his bloodthirst for revenge. But, more importantly, I can understand his motivations for wanting that revenge. It's more than just "I'm evil, from an evil universe, and I want more power like every other character in that universe."

Even as a Trump stand-in, if that's where they wanted to go, there's a lot more they could have done with evil Lorca.

 

[gblews]

The genius of Star Trek II, in part, is that Khan is such an interesting villain. He's clearly the baddie, and he does bad things, but you can also see his perspective. This is conflict with understandable motivation, even as Montalban hams it up on screen (in the best way possible, IMO). The battle is hard-fought, and, at the end, you've gone on a real emotional journey.

How is this any different from what we saw with Lorca? His motivations were clear. He wanted to get back to the MU along with Burnham, who he had an emotional attachment to, and who he would use to get close enough the Emperor to formulate a coup. He wanted to rule the MU because he thought he could do a better job than Georgiou and well, power.

The only difference I can see is that we knew Khan was a villain from the beginning and we only received hints that Lorca was. You may not have liked that Lorca ended turned out to be MU, but that doesn't change the fact that he was still a fully realized character with clear and logical motivations.

 

[fireproof78]

hey're going to hit a big reset? No. Wouldn't dare would they, when shows do that the fans get quite insulted

As opposed to all the "insults" the writers apparently did to fans with Lorca?

 

[gblews]

I'm not sure how, but I must have miscommunicated. It's not that he died, or when, or who he was killed by, or anything like that. It's what he became during the last episode leading up to that.

I see. You were referring to the reveal that Lorca was MU. The reason I went immediately to my thoughts about his death is because I think writing Lorca out of the show took precedent over pretty much everything about the character, including the type of villain he might have became. I mean, even if they had not made Lorca MU, even if he'd still turned out to be a different type of villain, he still had to go in the end.

So perhaps the production staff decided rather than do the expected, which would be turning Lorca into an all out hero or a villain with a heart of gold before killing him off, they would make a bold move like making him MU.

I applaud the staff's willingness to do something that's never been done before in the franchise, just wish it hadn't become overshadowed by Isaac's eminent departure (if that's what happened).

I'de like to ask the staff if they would have gone the same route with the character if they'd known they had Isaacs for 3 for 4 seasons. I know they wouldn't have killed him off, but would they have made him MU?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm wondering if any of the reaction to Lorca's fate would be different if he had actually succeeded in claiming the throne of the Empire?

Perhaps Emperor Lorca would have been grateful to the Discovery crew for making his ascent possible and thus he would have done all he could to help them get home as well. He could have even expressed regret for misleading them in the way that he did.

I think the only way they can fix this is by having him be reborn next season.

Or just bring in the prime universe version. I'm very interested to know what he was like.

Although I suppose I could just get off my ass and read the DSC novel Drastic Measures which does feature Lorca Prime.