What did Khan see in McGivers?
- Thread starter Dale Sams
- Start date
Ya know what actually bugs me most about Space Seed? McGivers' paintings - It's obvious they were painted by several different artists!
Or one artist with multiple personalities
I believe this is the kind of thing she was looking for. It very much looks like she is inwardly celebrating his treatment of her. Different strokes for different folks, especially in the future.
I'm pretty sure Marla was nowhere near his intellectual equal on matters he knew about that didn't include history or art. For instance, Khan stated he was an engineer (of sorts). Marla wasn't an engineer of any sort.
One reason Khan would have for wanting Marla was so he would have a willing source of information on the Federation and the 23rd century.
I interpreted that scene as her being annoyed at being called back on duty right after she'd just finished a shift.
Love is not necessary for marriage and producing an heir. Human history is full of marriages that were arranged and took little or no account of how the bride and groom actually felt toward one another.
Anyway, I suspect Khan and Marla had very different definitions of 'love.'
Or maybe he decided that having a non-white badguy in 2013 would not work just like it did in 1982?
Submissiveness.
Ya know what actually bugs me most about Space Seed? McGivers' paintings - It's obvious they were painted by several different artists!
Some talented artists can illustrate or paint in numerous styles that strike their fancy. McGivers was an artist of that ability.
Perhaps the 'coffins' were actually part of the Botany Bay and were designed to be removed for transportation elsewhere? Meaning, a portable 'coffin' that can dock with the inside of the ship and become the 'shelf.'
It's not that there would be something technologically suspect about cryocoffins vs. cryoshelves. It's just that if we are to accept the coffins as authentic 1990s hardware from the Botany Bay, they become our one and only divergence from the visual canon of TOS.
We don't see what the Cumberbatch Khan looked like and how he dressed when emerging from the long sleep - the movie kicks in at a later date, too late to contradict "Space Seed" visually. But we do know what the Botany Bay interiors looked like in TOS, and those interiors did not include these coffins in any fashion (the shelf hatches would have been too small to let them in and out, and the shelves simply don't look as if they could be these coffins embedded). It's a visual divergence significantly greater than between Shatner's and Pine's Kirks let alone Nimoy's and Quinto's Spocks, is all.
Which is why I like to, if not believe in, then at least point out the alternative of there having been two different types of cryostorage aboard, one seen in "Space Seed" and the other in ST:ID.
Timo Saloniei
We don't see what the Cumberbatch Khan looked like and how he dressed when emerging from the long sleep - the movie kicks in at a later date, too late to contradict "Space Seed" visually. But we do know what the Botany Bay interiors looked like in TOS, and those interiors did not include these coffins in any fashion (the shelf hatches would have been too small to let them in and out, and the shelves simply don't look as if they could be these coffins embedded). It's a visual divergence significantly greater than between Shatner's and Pine's Kirks let alone Nimoy's and Quinto's Spocks, is all.
Which is why I like to, if not believe in, then at least point out the alternative of there having been two different types of cryostorage aboard, one seen in "Space Seed" and the other in ST:ID.
Timo Saloniei
Personally, I never found Marla McGivers attractive, (kinda like how I never saw Rachel Dawes attractive in the Nolan Batman films), but Montalban (like Christian Bale) sell us on the idea that THEY love and care deeply about their women.
I agree with some of the thoughts that Khan initially used her, though he probably found her attractive from the start.
By the end, he makes it clear that he's falling for her: "A superior woman. I will take her."
15 years is quite a while, especially when stuck together on a "sand heap" trying to survive and bearing him children.
I agree with some of the thoughts that Khan initially used her, though he probably found her attractive from the start.
By the end, he makes it clear that he's falling for her: "A superior woman. I will take her."
15 years is quite a while, especially when stuck together on a "sand heap" trying to survive and bearing him children.
Is there anything to suggest that the coffins can't be new ones that were substituted by Admiral Marcus later on? I doubt he wanted to keep the Botany Bay, but of course he needed to use Khan's crew as leverage. It'd be easier to do that if they were all in portable coffins.
First he saw a boob (ooh double pun), then she earned his respect.
It makes sense visually that Khan's crew in TWOK were the offsping of his original group from Space Seed, they're obviously much younger than Khan himself, but then again we have this dialogue:
"...I on the other hand, am in a position to grant nothing. What you see here is all that remains of the ship's company and crew of the Botany Bay..."
"Captain, save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born."
This suggests that the younger group we see in TWOK are the original exiles that were on the BB with Khan.
"...I on the other hand, am in a position to grant nothing. What you see here is all that remains of the ship's company and crew of the Botany Bay..."
"Captain, save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born."
This suggests that the younger group we see in TWOK are the original exiles that were on the BB with Khan.
Dr. Sevrin said:
It is clear from what we are shown that McGivers has got a serious case of low self-esteem, as well as an established interest in "powerful men", including explicitly Khan himself. To repeat myself slightly, this is like a rock star offering a life-long fan the chance to bunk up in his dressing room. For his part, Khan evidently identified that this was something that can be exploited to his own ends. Such is often the way of an abusive relationship, sadly.....
But I don't doubt that he did come around to loving her genuinely, perhaps more so during their off-screen exile than for anything we actually saw back in "Space Seed".There's McCoy's comment that the technology is so old he doesn't fully understand it and cannot safely mess with it. The coffins could be substitutes, but they apparently also are old ones, from the 20th century. Where would Marcus find such things, and why would he use those if there are at least 22nd century alternatives known to exist (even if the art is finally lost in the 23rd century)?
True - but we can sidestep that by saying that a couple of the older folks survived alongside the kids. Khan would refer to those when making his grandiose claims.
Timo Saloniemi
That's both psychologically consistent behavior (she doesn't respect Kirk's authority, so why should she respect Khan's, now that she has him wrapped around her, uh, wrist?) and something I find rather familiar from various "topping from the bottom" D/S experiences. McGivers thinks she's immortal, especially now that she has been accepted by a rather divine man, and will do whatever she pleases (including harebrained things) if it helps her maintain the status she has gained. It's opportunism at its purest - and I could easily see Khan respecting that a lot.
But the important thing is that Khan still can tell to himself that he looks down on McGivers; the admiration cannot be allowed to interfere with his status as the absolute boss. Again, classic playful D/S stuff, rather than grim spousal abuse or psychopathic need to hurt others or whatever. I could see a relationship like that working just fine...
...Until McGivers learns that Khan has a harem of twenty already! That's when the power struggle turns nasty.
Timo Saloniemi
But the important thing is that Khan still can tell to himself that he looks down on McGivers; the admiration cannot be allowed to interfere with his status as the absolute boss. Again, classic playful D/S stuff, rather than grim spousal abuse or psychopathic need to hurt others or whatever. I could see a relationship like that working just fine...
...Until McGivers learns that Khan has a harem of twenty already! That's when the power struggle turns nasty.
Timo Saloniemi
McGivers was Khan's subbie.
He was looking for a subbie. He may have tried it with other women on the ship-- treat them like they're his toy until he finds one who's into that sort of thing.
Once he was defeated and facing exile he didn't have any other choices. Maybe the other augments were all dominants. Maybe they were kind of like siblings. If he was going to have a submissive partner, she was his only choice at that point.
He was looking for a subbie. He may have tried it with other women on the ship-- treat them like they're his toy until he finds one who's into that sort of thing.
Once he was defeated and facing exile he didn't have any other choices. Maybe the other augments were all dominants. Maybe they were kind of like siblings. If he was going to have a submissive partner, she was his only choice at that point.
I always thought it was her betrayal of him that made him respect her.
Initially he was quite charming when trying to manipulate her but later he seemed to lose patience with her submissivness. He still used it it his advantage but it came across to me as though he viewed her with disdain because of her willingness to just blindly go along with what ever he wanted even if it meant betraying her crew which kinda makes sense given how Khan seems to take pride in how loyal his own people are to him.
By betraying him at a point when he was in control of the Enterprise she showed that she could be assertive and displayed a loyalty toward her crew that i think impressed him. At the end he seemed quite pleased by her betrayal so i think her actions made him open to viewing her as a potential equal rather than just a inferior being to be manipulated and used. Obviously in the years spent together on Ceti Alpha she was able to impress him further.
Also her joining them in exile added another set of genes to the pool which is always a good thing in that kinda situation.
Initially he was quite charming when trying to manipulate her but later he seemed to lose patience with her submissivness. He still used it it his advantage but it came across to me as though he viewed her with disdain because of her willingness to just blindly go along with what ever he wanted even if it meant betraying her crew which kinda makes sense given how Khan seems to take pride in how loyal his own people are to him.
By betraying him at a point when he was in control of the Enterprise she showed that she could be assertive and displayed a loyalty toward her crew that i think impressed him. At the end he seemed quite pleased by her betrayal so i think her actions made him open to viewing her as a potential equal rather than just a inferior being to be manipulated and used. Obviously in the years spent together on Ceti Alpha she was able to impress him further.
Also her joining them in exile added another set of genes to the pool which is always a good thing in that kinda situation.
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