Retconned maybe, but not by STE. Chekov, in TWOK, says: "Criminal, Captain, a product of 20th century GENETIC ENGINEERING"
What did Khan see in McGivers?
- Thread starter Dale Sams
- Start date
Retconned maybe, but not by STE. Chekov, in TWOK, says: "Criminal, Captain, a product of 20th century GENETIC ENGINEERING"
The one in TOS is Joaquin. TWOK has JoaCHIM. And that's not a retcon.
That's really obvious, yeah. Kind of makes Khan stand out as a sort of exotic anti-hero. That's what excites McGivers. Had she been in TWOK, I think it would have been interesting to see her as being a bit crazy. In "Space Seed" she has this fascination with conquerors and so on that's terribly obvious, and she's impressionable.
Amen, brother! There's that famous anecdote about how GR previewed Bill Theiss' Starfleet costume for women crew members and how told Theiss "Make the skirt shorter."
"Aryan" is used with a specific meaning in those discussions: The blond haired, blue eyed Nazi ideal, not just "European". Only a couple of Khan's followers in "Space Seed" come close to that ideal. Khan also calls out a few by name: Rodriguez (Hispanic). Ling (Chinese). McPherson (Celtic) and his right hand man is named Joaquin (Hispanic).
A random thought. The Ceti eels are what killed McGivers at some point. Kahn knows what they can do likely after events that killed a bunch of his people. That they make the subject highly susceptible to suggestion, I wonder what "suggestions" he gave to his beloved wife during those days she has an eel in her ear? If that is how he found out about how to use the eels that is.
And that's sort of the point: save for "Western, European", there's no connect between what Scotty says and what the episode shows. There are no obviously "Latin" types there, no "Orientals", nobody with a dark skin of any shade, etc.
Sure, Khan's folks in ST2 have blond or light red hair, while there are some dark-haired people in "Space Seed". But the Nazi idea of "Aryan" would certainly cover all of Khan's "Space Seed" family, even if the trekbbs usage in arguments relating to ST2 sometimes is different.
It's a bit curious - why didn't Desilu cast any "obviously ethnic" types for the episode, save for Montalban (whose portrayed ethnicity is somewhat ambiguous)? At the very least, the cast in many episodes included frighteningly good-looking tall black men who would scare the bejesus out of Kirk's redshirts in a dark corridor; a perfect addition to a troop of supermen, I'd think.
Sounds rather likely, really. Perhaps he's also a bit guilt-ridden about that part, and torn because a superman can't be guilt-ridden, all of which helps him in his project to get stark raving mad?
No doubt Khan had also used the eels against his local enemies like he did with the Starfleet officers; ultimately his paranoia and such measures would mean that few of the original 72 would survive, and his followers would consist mainly of children born during the first year.
Timo Saloniemi
The only problem with all of this is that in Star Trek II, Khan said "These people have sworn to live and die by my command 200 years before you were born." and "What you see is all that remains of the ship's company of the Botany Bay, bla bla bla..".
I suppose there could have been unseen children of the supermen on the Botany Bay, but I can't quite picture infants (or near-infants) swearing allegiance to anybody at that point in their lives.
Correction: the kids didn't need to be that young...I suppose history has more than a few instances of five-year-olds being indoctrinated. Khan certainly wasn't going to sit around and wait for kids' eighteenth birthdays to get them to get behind him!
72 life-support cannisters were said to be functioning in Space Seed, so subtract 20 because of the eels (according to Khan), so that leaves 52. I've never made a head count of followers in Wrath, but it appears to be a dozen or so. This all leaves around 40 unaccounted-for people. I assume they must've been (mostly) the parents of the kids, who may have sacrificed their lives (or otherwise died) so that their offspring would live. It's not like life in Ceti Alpha 5's future was so bright, they had to wear shades. (see how I tied that in to a song contemporaneous with the movies' release?
)
That's the only way can reconcile what was seen on the movie screen.
I suppose there could have been unseen children of the supermen on the Botany Bay, but I can't quite picture infants (or near-infants) swearing allegiance to anybody at that point in their lives.
Correction: the kids didn't need to be that young...I suppose history has more than a few instances of five-year-olds being indoctrinated. Khan certainly wasn't going to sit around and wait for kids' eighteenth birthdays to get them to get behind him!
72 life-support cannisters were said to be functioning in Space Seed, so subtract 20 because of the eels (according to Khan), so that leaves 52. I've never made a head count of followers in Wrath, but it appears to be a dozen or so. This all leaves around 40 unaccounted-for people. I assume they must've been (mostly) the parents of the kids, who may have sacrificed their lives (or otherwise died) so that their offspring would live. It's not like life in Ceti Alpha 5's future was so bright, they had to wear shades. (see how I tied that in to a song contemporaneous with the movies' release?
)That's the only way can reconcile what was seen on the movie screen.
Last edited:
"Western European" not "Western, European".
About that:
IIRC, Khan doesn't know about the Ceti eels until one of them takes over Marla. She tries to kill Khan, prompted by one of his rivals, but she overcomes it and kills herself instead.
And besides, even assuming that Khan really did love Marla - which I still am not sure of - he wouldn't use an eel to control her. He wants people to love him of their own free will.
And besides, even assuming that Khan really did love Marla - which I still am not sure of - he wouldn't use an eel to control her. He wants people to love him of their own free will.
Actually, a misquote on my part: should have been "Western, mid-European, Latin, Oriental." Which, upon doing a bit of research, might not be as multicultural as most think, since western and Latin can be applied solely to European peoples.
The only problem with all of this is that in Star Trek II, Khan said "These people have sworn to live and die by my command 200 years before you were born." and "What you see is all that remains of the ship's company of the Botany Bay, bla bla bla..".
I suppose there could have been unseen children of the supermen on the Botany Bay, but I can't quite picture infants (or near-infants) swearing allegiance to anybody at that point in their lives.
Correction: the kids didn't need to be that young...I suppose history has more than a few instances of five-year-olds being indoctrinated. Khan certainly wasn't going to sit around and wait for kids' eighteenth birthdays to get them to get behind him!
72 life-support cannisters were said to be functioning in Space Seed, so subtract 20 because of the eels (according to Khan), so that leaves 52. I've never made a head count of followers in Wrath, but it appears to be a dozen or so. This all leaves around 40 unaccounted-for people. I assume they must've been (mostly) the parents of the kids, who may have sacrificed their lives (or otherwise died) so that their offspring would live. It's not like life in Ceti Alpha 5's future was so bright, they had to wear shades. (see how I tied that in to a song contemporaneous with the movies' release?
That's the only way can reconcile what was seen on the movie screen.
Well, it kinda all goes to hell with the statement that it's been 15 years since Space Seed. ALL those people were over 15. Judson Scott was 30. There is one guy that looks about Montalban's age - the guy who almost falls over Khan when they hit the nebula. But the rest are pretty much inexplicable.
At times I like to squint my eyes and pretend that the Bonanza episode with Ricardo and Madlyn is some bizarre post TOS AU Ceti Alpha V story:
Oh, that's awesome!
Similarly, there's an episode of Kung Fu with Shatner, and his exotic Chinese wife is played by France Nuyen. Kirk and Elaan, stepping thru the Guardian and settling in 19th century San Fran?
Lol. Once when a Barbary Coast episode was on, I had convinced my sister it was a time travel Star Trek episode.
Similar threads
