He saw a way to gain control of the ship (first and foremost); and then, a way to continue the 'line'.
What did Khan see in McGivers?
- Thread starter Dale Sams
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He saw a way to gain control of the ship (first and foremost); and then, a way to continue the 'line'.
I kind of saw her death as one of many reasons that Khan wanted revenge. He emphasizes being marooned on a dying world and never being checked on way more than he does Marla.
There is every indication, from the time Kirk's recon party recovers Khan from his hibernaculum, that Lt. McGivers recognized him from the start. She was fascinated with him from first sight.
There's a tendency on this forum (which I assume is male-dominated) to assume McGivers was guilty of some romantic "weakness". While there is obvious evidence of this character flaw in her, I do not see that as the whole story. McGivers said it herself:
It is clear from their private exchanges that McGivers' fascination with Khan is more than just sexual/romantic. She knew who he was from the beginning, and she was captivated by both his personality and what we was doing. (And what he had done in the distant past.) In short, she admired him and his exploits.
Consider what Ralph Offenhouse said in his confrontation with Captain Picard in TNG's "The Neutral Zone":
This was the same thing Khan was trying to do by escaping aboard the S.S. Botany Bay: trying to re-assert himself in control of his life, his destiny. "Better to rule in Hell than to serve in heaven." Khan knew that once he entered the hibernaculum he might never wake up again, but he did it anyway. He and his comrades were willing to risk everything to escape their failed attempt to take over the world and seek a new destiny in space. Lt. McGivers recognized this, was captivated by this (seduction in more than just a personal/romantic way) and sought to join them. As with Bonnie & Cylde, McGivers was as involved in Khan's takeover of the Enterprise as Khan was himself. After all, Khan trusted her enough to leave her behind in the Transporter Room while he revived his comrades.
As I'm sure you're aware, that's a retcon based on the Augments arc of Star Trek: Enterprise, written and produced 37 years later.
As originally written, Khan and his followers were simply the products of selective breeding, not advanced genetic engineering. There was no suggestion that they were incapable of love or compassion -- only, as Spock pointed out, that "superior ability breeds superior ambition."
Retcon though it may be, I still consider it definitive. And from what I see of Khan and his ilk even in TOS alone, I see no reason to change my position. (Look at how Khan treats McGivers within hours of their first meeting. Does that look like love or compassion to you?)
And I might point out that the use of genetic engineering as an explanation for Khan's abilities and personality was NOT an invention of Enterprise. Chekov mentioned it in TWOK. You do consider those movies part of TOS ... don't you?
I've said it before, but McGivers was nuts. Her quarters were absolutely jammed with her works of art, which clearly took precedence over the idea of exploring strange new worlds. This is evident the moment we meet her, by her reaction to the call for Lieutenant McGivers to report to the transporter room. I'm surprised she didn't do the exasperated blow-a-lock-of-hair-away-from-her-forehead thing.
I thought the actress was fine for the part, as she seemed to play this kind of role well. Her (at least) two appearances on Hawaii Five-O featured the same thing: a woman who had a personal, self-centered goal which made the needs of others secondary.
Louise Sorel was similar in this was. Ironically, her portrayal of the Rayna Kapec android in Requiem for Methuselah was probably the most human and sympathetic role I'd ever seen her play!
I thought the actress was fine for the part, as she seemed to play this kind of role well. Her (at least) two appearances on Hawaii Five-O featured the same thing: a woman who had a personal, self-centered goal which made the needs of others secondary.
Louise Sorel was similar in this was. Ironically, her portrayal of the Rayna Kapec android in Requiem for Methuselah was probably the most human and sympathetic role I'd ever seen her play!
In her defense, she was a historian. I can't imagine she goes on too many landing parties. I'm not entirely sure what the role of "ship's historian" would be, but I would guess it would be more ship-based research on data collected by others. Note that the position apparently falls under the Ship's Services department.
This is separate from the Archaeology & Anthropology officer, which falls under the Sciences department. I'd imagine the A&A officer goes on lot more landing parties.
There is no evidence in Riccardo Montalban's portrayal of Khan that he or any of his fellow Botany Bay "supermen" (or "superwomen") were anything but selectively bred human beings with aggressive tendencies. The original dialogue in the episode indicated the "Eugenics Wars" occurred in the 1990s (with STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT strongly suggesting the Third World War was retconned to the 2050s), so there was clearly no time for anything beyond selective breeding and totalitarianism to cultivate Khan's violence on Earth before the Botany Bay's launch.
STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN seemed to suggest he married (apparently McGivers) during his exile on Ceti Alpha V. If these selectively-bred conquerors had the genes altered to the point where they no longer had the capacity for love, I doubt Khan would have taken a mate.
STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN seemed to suggest he married (apparently McGivers) during his exile on Ceti Alpha V. If these selectively-bred conquerors had the genes altered to the point where they no longer had the capacity for love, I doubt Khan would have taken a mate.
She was probably a pleasant change from his egomaniacal colleagues.
What I want to know is why Khan's followers all went from multi-ethnic adults who were clearly Khan's contemporaries to a bunch of Aryan-wannabes who were clearly a generation younger than him by WOK.
Seems to back up the Genetic Engineering thing, that their offspring (if that's what the kids were) would end up like that.
Seems to back up the Genetic Engineering thing, that their offspring (if that's what the kids were) would end up like that.
Poetic license.
It doesn't make sense for these to be the kids either. Unless they started pumping out kids as soon as they were stranded. And these kids were younger than they looked.
Also these aryan kids didn't seem all that intelligent. Neither did most of the augments in the Star Trek series. Just super strong and real pretty.
If you didn't see the adults in Space Seed then the aryan thing might have made sense. Maybe Orci and co only watched TWOK and not Space Seed.
Seems obvious to me - selective breeding!
That is, in the hellish conditions on the planet, only a select few of the supermen could breed. And the folks we saw were the children of the winners in that race - for all we know, the children of Khan and McGivers (who may well have applied Artificial Intelligence on her naturally blonde hair).
...Plus it's quite possible that Khan in that timeline emerged from his tube looking more or less like Montalban, then underwent a series of cosmetic surgery operations as part of his new job, and also did some fancy stuff with his blood on the side when his superiors weren't looking. There's nothing "non-multi-ethnic" about the supermen of ST:ID, really.
(The one thing inconsistent with "Space Seed" is that the movie Augments are in old-fashioned cryocoffins, while the TV supermen were stored in old-fashioned cryoshelves. Where would Marcus have obtained ancient coffins for the supermen, and why would he have moved them to those from their original shelves? But "Space Seed" only showed half a dozen shelves; perhaps those were reserved for Khan and his closest aides, while the rest were indeed in coffins originally.)
Timo Saloniemi
Truer words were never spoken.
I'm not sure what could've been done differently here, but when McGuivers gets roughed up in Khan's quarters, when he announces he wants to take over the ship, he gives her ample opportunity to flee and even commands her out of the room. Instead, she says, "noes!" and crawls back to him, for apparently no reason. This was so unmotivated, it seemed like, especially after the treatment she'd only just received by his hand! Yes, she was supposed to be starry-eyed, but if being Man-handled wasn't enough to snap her out of it, then she had to not be right in the head to start with. Maybe she hated her shipmates and/or being on the ship, for some reason. Khan's charisma doesn't seem enough to account for it ...
Lots of people stay in abusive relationships for reasons unfathomable to others, even today.
I think it was amply foreshadowed that silly Starfleet ideas about "duty" and "oaths" played little or no role in McGivers' life. It would have been unfounded for her to break off when everything was proceeding according to her wishes and fantasies, just because she was supposed to report to her "superior" (bah!) officers or whatnot.
This is not something we have to rationalize afterwards. The personality of McGivers is constructed scene by scene, starting with giving her a backstory, even: expository dialogue and her being late for her first-ever appearance serve well to establish that she's not a model officer or a valuable and disciplined member of the crew.
Timo Saloniemi
This is not something we have to rationalize afterwards. The personality of McGivers is constructed scene by scene, starting with giving her a backstory, even: expository dialogue and her being late for her first-ever appearance serve well to establish that she's not a model officer or a valuable and disciplined member of the crew.
Timo Saloniemi
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