What Changed All Good Things?

[rocketscientist]

There is probably no good explanation for this, considering the deux ex machina plot device that was the Nexus in GEN, but here it goes:

Ok, in the final TNG episode, All Good Things, we saw a future where the Enterprise D wasn't destroyed, Picard was a retired ambassador (who never attained the rank of admiral), Riker was an admiral, Data occupied the Lucasian chair at Oxford, etc.

In GEN's first timeline, though, the Enterprise D and all hands was destroyed.
In the second altered timeline, the Enterprise D was still destroyed, although the crew was saved (thanks to the sacrifice of Captain James T. Kirk).

So, my question is, what the hell changed? At the end of All Good Things, Picard does tell the crew about how they drifted apart in the future. As far as he knew, though, the Enterprise-D survived. If we saw it in the future of All Good Things, how could it have been destroyed and replaced by the Ent-E in GEN?!?!?

I can't really think of a good explanation for this, other than that the future seen in All Good Things was a Q-generated illusion. That would suck, though, because it would remove a lot of the impact of the original story.

Did the anti-time anomaly somehow have an effect on global events, i.e. its presence altered the trajectory of the Nexus in some fashion so that in that future, the events on GEN never happened (and Kirk would've still been in the Nexus! ).

Does anyone else have any other ideas? Again, I realize there probably isn't a very good one. Ron Moore pretty much admitted that the whole Nexus idea is a huge plot hole in the script. It's funny though that he and Braga apparently didn't pick up on this problem, considering they wrote both stories. I know they were instructed to blow up the Enterprise in GEN, but if that's the case, why didn't they remove it from All Good Things?

 

[smeos]

From what I've heard, the E-D didn't hold up well on the big screen, so they wanted an excuse to bring in a new ship. It's too bad that the old girl went out like a bitch.

As for everything else, there is the theory that as soon as you know what will happen in the future, it will never come to pass . . .

 

[rocketscientist]

From what I've heard, the E-D didn't hold up well on the big screen, so they wanted an excuse to bring in a new ship. It's too bad that the old girl went out like a bitch.

Hey smeos!

Really? I didn't think the model looked bad at all. I know the smaller Ent-D model they used for season 4 was more detailed than the ILM one and I thought it looked great.

Unlike the original ST Enterprise model, which obviously wasn't very detailed, the Ent-D model was, from what I've seen, perfectly fine for movie work.
The original Enterprise model needed more detailing, so they redesigned the whole thing too and called it a refit in TMP. The Ent-D, I believe, was simply replaced to usher in a new movie design (or an older one, since it was very retro imo). I don't think the detailing on the model was a problem.

And yeah, the Ent-D, with a 100 year lifetime on its space-frame, went out badly, against a little Klingon Bird of Prey it vastly out-gunned. I gotta beieve that SF wasn't happy with that loss. I imagine that was a big blemish on Riker and Worf's (as Security Chief) records.

As for everything else, there is the theory that as soon as you know what will happen in the future, it will never come to pass . . .

I haven't heard of that one.

The thing is, Picard recalled some of the things from the future timeline, but not all. He imparted the fact that the crew drifted apart. I don't see how any of that foreknowledge that Picard had could've effected the events of GEN. It occurred shortly after All Good Things. Picard didn't know about Soran, he didn't say, "I remember that the Veridian system was destroyed in Q's future."

I dunno, maybe you're right. Maybe as a result of All Good Things or something, Picard made a very small decision, like extending the Enterprise's shoreleave, which resulted in them being the closest ship when the Armogossa laboratory was attacked by the Romulans.

Somewhere in there, there had to have been a change.

 

[Space Cowboy]

I imagine that a series of events occurred between AGT and GEN that caused some differences in the timeline. Upon meeting future-Picard on the vineyard, future-Geordi mentions that he hasn't addressed Picard as captain in 25 years, which was about the same distance into the future from the present timeline. From that, I assume that Picard either transferred or retired from Starfleet (possibly due to the fire referenced in GEN). Since he ends up marrying and divorcing Bev Crusher in the 25-year interval, it would appear likely that they were in proximity for more than the year following AGT, and that lends itself to a Picard transfer theory (but to what is unknown).

Some other event occurred that kept Riker, Troi, and Worf within proximity for the next five years, in which Troi dies around the time of INS, and neither Worf or Riker end up with her. Since the Enterprise obviously wasn't destroyed, it is possible that Riker got his 4th pip with the command of the Enterprise and Worf didn't transfer to DS9 after the Enterprise wasn't destroyed over Veridian III. My guess in Troi died in some engagement during the Dominion War, since future-Riker mentioned that he and Worf hadn't talked in 20 years. With a 2395 date for AGT future timeline, that would line up Troi's death with the final season of DS9.

All this is IMHO.

 

[CaptainStoner]

It raises in mind the question of whether future time travel is really possible. It is and it isn't. Anything you go forward into is occuring along its own time wave, go back and all the variables in the universe reset and play out again. Going back, there is presumeably some kind of pattern to follow, but if not, it would be the same kind of chaos going back as going forward. And you would never quite know if you had found your way "back" or not, unless by some other unknown means.

 

[DonIago]

(grins evilly) Maybe in the AGT timeline Riker went down to Veridian and Picard stayed on the ship. Or maybe as soon as they arrived they deployed shuttles and crew in an attempt to locate and stop Soran instead of just sitting in orbit waiting around. Or maybe in the AGT timeline Geordi tuned up the warp core a week earlier because he didn't get distracted by Data and his emotions.

 

[smeos]

From what I've heard, the E-D didn't hold up well on the big screen, so they wanted an excuse to bring in a new ship. It's too bad that the old girl went out like a bitch.

Hey smeos!

Really? I didn't think the model looked bad at all. I know the smaller Ent-D model they used for season 4 was more detailed than the ILM one and I thought it looked great.

Unlike the original ST Enterprise model, which obviously wasn't very detailed, the Ent-D model was, from what I've seen, perfectly fine for movie work.
The original Enterprise model needed more detailing, so they redesigned the whole thing too and called it a refit in TMP. The Ent-D, I believe, was simply replaced to usher in a new movie design (or an older one, since it was very retro imo). I don't think the detailing on the model was a problem.

And yeah, the Ent-D, with a 100 year lifetime on its space-frame, went out badly, against a little Klingon Bird of Prey it vastly out-gunned. I gotta beieve that SF wasn't happy with that loss. I imagine that was a big blemish on Riker and Worf's (as Security Chief) records.

That's just something I've heard around the web for a while. I don't know how true it is. I have no problem with them destroying the ship, but a more fitting ending was definitely in order.

As for the future thing. The idea is that as soon as you can see your own future, you will inevitably try to change it for the better.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Another question is, where any other Galaxies refitted with the 3rd nacelle? Starfleet has a history of using 1-4 nacelles in their designs, though 2 is most common. Even though the Ent-D never saw the day, doesn't mean the plans didn't go forward. As radical a refit as that is, it is much more efficient than creating a whole new starship.

 

[Christopher]

There is probably no good explanation for this, considering the deux ex machina plot device that was the Nexus in GEN

How does that typo keep cropping up? That's twice in two days I've encountered it. It's deus ex machina. God from the machine. "Deux ex machina" would be French/Latin for "two from the machine."

So, my question is, what the hell changed? At the end of All Good Things, Picard does tell the crew about how they drifted apart in the future. As far as he knew, though, the Enterprise-D survived. If we saw it in the future of All Good Things, how could it have been destroyed and replaced by the Ent-E in GEN?!?!?

I can't really think of a good explanation for this, other than that the future seen in All Good Things was a Q-generated illusion. That would suck, though, because it would remove a lot of the impact of the original story.

Personally, I was never quite convinced that the Q really were as powerful as they claimed to be, that it wasn't all just a fancy simulation. Okay, they did show real power on occasion, such as repositioning the moon of Bre'el IV, curing a planet's ecosystem, and setting off a bunch of supernovae. But so very much of what Q and his kindred were shown to do could've easily been illusory. Q was always insisting that the worlds he created were real, but what kind of sap would take Q's word for anything?

And of course the events of the "Encounter at Farpoint" flashbacks had no effect on the other timelines, and it had several inconsistencies with the real "Farpoint," so it was either an alternate time track or an illusion. Or, to split the difference, maybe all three time frames were simulations in Picard's mind of possible timelines modeled by the Q.

It raises in mind the question of whether future time travel is really possible. It is and it isn't. Anything you go forward into is occuring along its own time wave, go back and all the variables in the universe reset and play out again. Going back, there is presumeably some kind of pattern to follow, but if not, it would be the same kind of chaos going back as going forward. And you would never quite know if you had found your way "back" or not, unless by some other unknown means.

That's essentially so. The universe isn't Newtonian, so if you set the same initial conditions and run time forward from there on two different occasions, you can easily get two different results just from quantum fluctuations and chaos.

 

[Therin of Andor]

How does that typo keep cropping up? That's twice in two days I've encountered it.

Well, 'cos it was a "Deux ex machina".

 

[Kryton]

Is the machine coin-operated? 'Cause I have a jarful across the room.

 

[EEE]

Another question is, where any other Galaxies refitted with the 3rd nacelle? Starfleet has a history of using 1-4 nacelles in their designs, though 2 is most common. Even though the Ent-D never saw the day, doesn't mean the plans didn't go forward. As radical a refit as that is, it is much more efficient than creating a whole new starship.

I'd heard decades ago that Roddenberry was angry with Franz Joseph designs for allowing odd number engines in the original Star Trek Technical manual. The story goes that in Roddenberry's universe there were always two engines period, but the genie had been let out of the bottle.

As for the Ent-D, well it was one of many reasons it took me 2 decades to get myself to watch all of TNG. Shame they didn't get rid of it around 1986! (<-- not a typo)

 

[rocketscientist]

(grins evilly) Maybe in the AGT timeline Riker went down to Veridian and Picard stayed on the ship. Or maybe as soon as they arrived they deployed shuttles and crew in an attempt to locate and stop Soran instead of just sitting in orbit waiting around. Or maybe in the AGT timeline Geordi tuned up the warp core a week earlier because he didn't get distracted by Data and his emotions.

Now we're getting somewhere!

Good theories DonIago. You're right, all it could take is one different decision. We make decisions based on information, our emotions etc. In the AGT future, Picard didn't have that experience with the anti-time anomaly and the accompanying enlightenment. In the revised timeline, he did, and he passed along some limited information to his crew.

Geordi not looking at that panel, Picard deciding on another course of action instead of making a deal with the Duras sisters (which I thought was pretty irrational actually), all those could've lead to the Enterprise surviving GEN. The event of Soran and Picard entering the Nexus, was, after all, completely independent of the Enterprise being destroyed by the Duras sisters old Klingon ship (which was just pathetic). One little decision, maybe Riker or Worf deciding to check out Geordi's Visor, since it'd been compromised by the Romulans previously, would've saved the Enterprise.

The more I think about it, the more I think Riker, Worf, and/or Geordi were really negligent not to check out the visor. What the Duras sisters did to Riker and the Ent-D was a lot less sophisticated than the way Khan bamboozed Kirk in TWOK. After what happened with the Romulans, Riker, Worf, or Geordi should've had that visor checked. That didn't make much sense at all.

 

[Unicron]

I can't really think of a good explanation for this, other than that the future seen in All Good Things was a Q-generated illusion. That would suck, though, because it would remove a lot of the impact of the original story.

It was already stated to be effectively a Q-generated illusion, by both Q in the courtroom at the end and by Data at the poker table (since the Q created the anomaly to begin with, and Picard solved it, its non-existence changed the present and therefore allowed for a different future than the one Picard witnessed)

I'd heard decades ago that Roddenberry was angry with Franz Joseph designs for allowing odd number engines in the original Star Trek Technical manual. The story goes that in Roddenberry's universe there were always two engines period, but the genie had been let out of the bottle.

Not exactly. Gene did have some issues with FJ over some of his designs, but he also felt that nacelles had to be paired in order to create a stable warp envelope. Having an odd number would not create that, and would be like a helicopter missing a rotor.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

(grins evilly) Maybe in the AGT timeline Riker went down to Veridian and Picard stayed on the ship. Or maybe as soon as they arrived they deployed shuttles and crew in an attempt to locate and stop Soran instead of just sitting in orbit waiting around. Or maybe in the AGT timeline Geordi tuned up the warp core a week earlier because he didn't get distracted by Data and his emotions.

Or maybe in the alternate timeline Worf actually shot more than one phaser blast back at the Duras when they opened fire, and instead of running away actually desroyed the BOP like the little ant (in comparason to the galaxy class D) that it was.

I never got that, they say a few times that the BOP is no match for a G.Class ship then the Enterprise gets its ass kicked by the thing that was supposidly no match for them?

 

[Kryton]

Well, the BoP DID manage to use technology to shut down the ENT-D's shields (not entirely unlike the way Kirk turned the tables on Khan).

 

[DonIago]

Except the BoP didn't shut down Enterprise's shields, they just modified their torpedoes to penetrate them based on frequency. If someone on the E-D had thought to remodulate the shield frequency the Klingons would have lost their advantage (at least until Geordi looked at the shield frequency again).

 

[cardinal biggles]

Yeah, that was pretty dumb, especially considering all their experience fighting the Borg. After the first torpedo hit, Riker should have ordered a rotation in the shield frequency. And if he didn't, you'd at least expect that Data, Worf, or Geordi would think to suggest it.

Sloppy writing rears its head again.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Actually I was thinking regardless of the shield situation they still should have been no match for the enterprises weapons.
If they'd had a NegVar class warship attacking the D with that edge over the shields it would have looked better, and looked way better on the big screen

 

[RoJoHen]

^But then they couldn't have re-used the BOP destruction from TUC.