What Are the Ways the Star Wars Prequels Could Be Improved???

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I've never been entirely convinced "dying of a broken heart" is actually what's happening in that scene.

With these movies, it's always important to remember that Lucas is a visual storyteller first and foremost. His own assessment of his writing ability is mediocre to poor, so if you ever want to really understand his intent then you must forget the dialogue & the exposition and just watch what's actually happening. Look at the way the scenes are designed, framed and edited. That's his canvas.

So when I look at Padme's death I'm not seeing a random, poorly explained medical condition, I'm seeing the birth of something evil and unnatural and parasitic. What I see is her heartbeat syncing up his. With her last breath comes his first. I think what this means is the part of him that was so desperate to keep her became a twisted, hungry, grasping, clawing thing that literally (though certainly unconsciously) reaches out and drains the life out of her. On some deep level, he quite literally never let her go after he grabbed her in his fury.

This whole scene is so steeped in both the literal and the symbolic one doesn't have to dig too deep to get what's going on here.
Symbolically, Padme is dying because she represents the good in Anakin (in a sense, they're both dying.) Literally, Padme is dying because Vader is draining her life force to stay alive.
Symbolically, the twins and Vader are being born simultaneously because they represent the hope for his future and an indication that there is still a tiny piece of Anakin still alive in there. Literally: because Vader is killing Padme and her body is sacrificing what little it has left to save the twins.

So not so much a broken heart as a stolen life force.

If she were truly loosing the will to live, then her last words would not be a desperate plea to Obi-Wan that Anakin can still be redeemed. So like I said, that's not what's happening. Ignore the text; examine the subtext.

As for Palpatine's assertion: I've always wondered why he said that with such certainty. Did he know for a fact she was dead? Did he just say that to piss Vader off? If so then what if she happened to be still alive? Would he have had to have her hunted down and killed just to cover his arse? I think the most logical explanation is that he knew because Vader did drain the life from her and Sidious stood by and watch the whole thing, sensing exactly what was going on.

So what he told him was true, from a certain point of view.

I really like that interpretation, Rev. I just happened to stumble in here inadvertently, and It's funny because as I finished reading the first of these two posts and @Prax's just after, my IMMEDIATE thought before I even got to your follow-up was: "So what Palpatine told him was true...from a certain point of view"!

Whatever the exact mechanism/dynamic at work, it's always been quite clear to me, thematically speaking, that by turning to the dark side in a desperate effort to "save" Padme from the fate he has foreseen for her, Anakin actually causes her death, bringing about by his own actions the very thing he was seeking to prevent in so acting. A self-fulfilling prophecy. The more one tightens one's grip, the more will slip through one's fingers...

 

[fireproof78]

It doesn't matter in so much because it's not a science fiction story, it's a science fantasy fairy tale. Do fairy tales ever get into the textual details of exactly *how* one turns rodents and a vegetable into a swanky means of conveyance beyond "it's magic"? For that matter has Star Wars? The closest it's ever come is Qui Gon's explanation of midichlorians and fans were outraged at even that detail.

So while yes I think it's clear what's going on if one examine's the subtext, the reason it is subtext is because 1) it doesn't matter to the mythmaking side of things 2) the character's present wouldn't know what's happening anyway and 3) Lucas likes avant-garde and esoteric imagery. It's how he got started and it's always what he gravitates towards.

I'm not saying its not mythmaking or magic at all. I'm not looking for a rational reason in that sense. More that the subtext isn't as clear as I feel like others think it is.

Or, I'm just dense.

 

[Reverend]

I'm not saying its not mythmaking or magic at all. I'm not looking for a rational reason in that sense. More that the subtext isn't as clear as I feel like others think it is.

Or, I'm just dense.

Just watch the scene and pay attention to the imagery and sound design. Specifically the contrasting heartbeats and what they do in relation to what's going on. Headphones might help.

 

[fireproof78]

Just watch the scene and pay attention to the imagery and sound design. Specifically the contrasting heartbeats and what they do in relation to what's going on. Headphones might help.

Now, where do the headphones plug in to the book?

 

[Reverend]

Now, where do the headphones plug in to the book?

Right here.

 

[fireproof78]

Right here.

39.99?!? I didn't realize that.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not saying its not mythmaking or magic at all. I'm not looking for a rational reason in that sense. More that the subtext isn't as clear as I feel like others think it is.

Or, I'm just dense.

I'd go so far as to say that the text actively contradicts and undermines the subtext in this instance.

They could have left it at "We don't know why she's dying", which would have been pretty weak given that they had both advanced medical technology and advanced Force-users there, but only mildly insulting to the audience. But they had to throw in that "She's lost the will to live" line, which just furthers the destruction of her character that started with "You just killed a bunch of women and children because you got pissed off? God that makes me hot!"

It also, frankly, reeks a bit of Trinity (from the Matrix) syndrome: they didn't have anything else to do with the character, so they killed her (contradicting Leia's RotJ line in the process). I can see from a writing standpoint what they were going for, but they flubbed the dismount.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You're either way too cynical or don't have any understanding of Padme whatsoever if that's how you see her character and her actions.

 

[Prax]

I'd go so far as to say that the text actively contradicts and undermines the subtext in this instance.

They could have left it at "We don't know why she's dying", which would have been pretty weak given that they had both advanced medical technology and advanced Force-users there, but only mildly insulting to the audience. But they had to throw in that "She's lost the will to live" line, which just furthers the destruction of her character that started with "You just killed a bunch of women and children because you got pissed off? God that makes me hot!"

It also, frankly, reeks a bit of Trinity (from the Matrix) syndrome: they didn't have anything else to do with the character, so they killed her (contradicting Leia's RotJ line in the process). I can see from a writing standpoint what they were going for, but they flubbed the dismount.

Didn't have anything else to do with her character?? This whole scene is the (climactic)denouement of the movie, and the climax of the wider story. Padme dies.

Leia's statements in RotJ are vague, "feelings, images mostly," but if taken to mean that they contradict RotS, then they would be a plot hole unto themselves, before any prequel was made. Like, how did Vader not know he had children? Why would Padme abandon Luke, but not Leia? Why would Padme die later on, but Leia now ALSO become adopted by another family? The more deeply considered, the more it doesn't add up. And at the very least, would make for a terrible ending of a movie. How would they even write that?

Maybe instead of having a conclusion in Ep3, we could have had a follow up miniseries about "Padme on the run" and we could follow Vader's new life "Working out the kinks" Where he has to deal with an overbearing boss, a cumbersome suit, and pesky renegade Jedi, while both of them long for the good ol days.

I propose ending the movie right:
Anakin dies in the fiery pits of Mt. Dooom, and as he is reborn as the unholy, mechanical Vader, Padme is smothered, whether symbolically, physically, or mystically. Her life is snuffed out.

Obi Wan and Yoda decide the fate of the children, just as we learn in the OT.

*Curtain closes

 

[fireproof78]

Leia's statements in RotJ are vague, "feelings, images mostly," but if taken to mean that they contradict RotS, then they would be a plot hole unto themselves, before any prequel was made. Like, how did Vader not know he had children? Why would Padme abandon Luke, but not Leia? Why would Padme die later on, but Leia now ALSO become adopted by another family? The more deeply considered, the more it doesn't add up. And at the very least, would make for a terrible ending of a movie. How would they even write that?

Those questions were answered by Obi-Wan in ROTJ, at least to my satisfaction. Leia and Padme hid on Alderaan, while Luke was hidden on Tattooine. In this instance, I add in my own head cannon that Obi-Wan would join them later.

However, Padme died and Obi-Wan determined that Leia was safe remaining, as he puts it, "anonymous."

Maybe instead of having a conclusion in Ep3, we could have had a follow up miniseries about "Padme on the run" and we could follow Vader's new life "Working out the kinks" Where he has to deal with an overbearing boss, a cumbersome suit, and pesky renegade Jedi, while both of them long for the good ol days.

I would watch that.

I propose ending the movie right:
Anakin dies in the fiery pits of Mt. Dooom, and as he is reborn as the unholy, mechanical Vader, Padme is smothered, whether symbolically, physically, or mystically. Her life is snuffed out.

Obi Wan and Yoda decide the fate of the children, just as we learn in the OT.

How I always imagined it.

 

[Prax]

I'd watch it, too. It's just that it would ruin the ending of the movie.


This is what Obi-Wan says:

Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Ghostly Ben: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope.
Luke: Yoda spoke of another.
Ben: The other he spoke of is your twin sister.
Luke: But I have no sister, duuuude!
Ben: To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your Father when you were born. The Emperor knew as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

P.S. I like your new avatar.

 

[fireproof78]

There is nothing in that sentence that precludes Padme going with Leia.

 

[LJones41]

I agree. It's obvious that Padme died right after giving birth to both Luke and Leia. And being Force sensitive, it's also obvious that Leia had sensed Padme's emotional state before the latter's death.

 

[Prax]

No, but he doesn't say this either:

Those questions were answered by Obi-Wan in ROTJ, at least to my satisfaction. Leia and Padme hid on Alderaan, while Luke was hidden on Tattooine.

What Obi-Wan tells Luke fits with how it plays out in Ep3.

 

[LJones41]

Literally, Padme is dying because Vader is draining her life force to stay alive.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. I think that Padme had allowed her emotional state to affect her health . .. especially while she was in the act of giving birth to twins. I never understood why people find it hard to consider how a person's emotional state can affect his or her health.

 

[Reverend]

There is nothing in that sentence that precludes Padme going with Leia.

Maybe not, but it doesn't suit the kind of mythmaking fairytale story that's being evoked quite as well as the mother giving her life for both her twins, who are then separated only for fate to reunite them years later.

Granted, it may not have been planned that way (for a given value of "plan" because a lot of the details were always in flux, even during shooting of the OT) but this is the simplest and most well suited outcome.

Consider this: how much of a disservice would it have been for Padme to have her die off-screen between movies? At least this way her death has some weight and meaning. We see her funeral, we see people morn her passing (and symbolically, the passing of the Republic.)


One detail I've found interesting is that the fact that they're adopted was never kept from either of the twins. There's no reason Beru and Owen couldn't have made out that Luke was their child, but instead they chose to tell him the truth (up to a point.)
The same with Leia and yet her exchange with Luke on Endor seems to presuppose that they both already know the Organa's weren't her birth parents, (presumably because they've talked to each other about it before.)

It's as if neither set of foster parents wanted to erase Padme from her children's lives entirely.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe not, but it doesn't suit the kind of mythmaking fairytale story that's being evoked quite as well as the mother giving her life for both her twins, who are then separated only for fate to reunite them years later.

Granted, it may not have been planned that way (for a given value of "plan" because a lot of the details were always in flux, even during shooting of the OT) but this is the simplest and most well suited outcome.

Consider this: how much of a disservice would it have been for Padme to have her die off-screen between movies? At least this way her death has some weight and meaning. We see her funeral, we see people morn her passing (and symbolically, the passing of the Republic.)


One detail I've found interesting is that the fact that they're adopted was never kept from either of the twins. There's no reason Beru and Owen couldn't have made out that Luke was their child, but instead they chose to tell him the truth (up to a point.)
The same with Leia and yet her exchange with Luke on Endor seems to presuppose that they both already know the Organa's weren't her birth parents, (presumably because they've talked to each other about it before.)

It's as if neither set of foster parents wanted to erase Padme from her children's lives entirely.

That's all perfectly fair.

And, to be clear, I think Padme dying at the end of ROTS is fine thematically, and fits well enough. I just enjoy thought experiments about other possible meanings from the text based upon what I thought from ROTJ until ROTS.

 

[DonIago]

^ You're either way too cynical or don't have any understanding of Padme whatsoever if that's how you see her character and her actions.

Let's see...she falls in love with a sociopath, then "loses the will to live" right after having two kids.

I think I can live with not having any understanding of that kind of person.

Apparently she didn't love him enough to try to get actual help for him before matters spun out of control.

 

[LJones41]

Apparently she didn't love him enough to try to get actual help for him before matters spun out of control.

I didn't realize that STAR WARS was set in the late 20th century or early 21st century. Anakin had already tried talking with Yoda about his troubling feelings and walked away feeling disappointed.

And I hate to say this, but Padme never really had a problem with what Anakin had done to the Tuskens. She thought they had deserved their fate after what they had done to Shmi. The movie's novelization confirmed this. I'm not saying there was nothing wrong with her views. I'm just saying that Padme was not the saint that many of the saga's fans seemed to think she was. I found it interesting that Padme had dismissed the Tuskens' murders and Anakin felt guilty about what he had done for three years. By the way, "Revenge of the Sith" did confirm this.

 

[DigificWriter]

Let's see...she falls in love with a sociopath, then "loses the will to live" right after having two kids.

I think I can live with not having any understanding of that kind of person.

Apparently she didn't love him enough to try to get actual help for him before matters spun out of control.

Except she's not "that kind of person", and the fact that you seem to think she is demonstrates that you really don't understand her character... or are so cynical that you're incapable of seeing the character for who she really was and grasping the point of Lucas characterizing her as he did.