What Are the Ways the Star Wars Prequels Could Be Improved???

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by VulcanMindBlown, Apr 9, 2017.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And what kind of person is she then? If you're going to attack my interpretation, the least you can do is put forth your own.

    When you do so, please cite sources for your interpretation being more true to what Lucas intended than my own, since you're claiming to have such a better understanding.
     
  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Padme was an idealist whose entire sense of the world centered on seeing the good in others even when they faltered. It's one of the things that initially made Anakin attractive to her, and it's something that stayed with her up until the point when he lost control of his anger and Force-choked her unconscious on Mustafar.

    There's also strong evidence to suggest that she was at least partially Force-sensitive herself, and that the depth of her connection to Anakin was such that the very act of his harnessing of the Dark Side to choke her on Mustafar had a physically and mentally fatal 'ripple effect' on her.
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    To what strong evidence are you referring?
     
  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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  5. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There's like five different interpretations going on here.

    Since the cause of Padme's death is unknown, we are left with the following options:

    -She died of psychological trauma and mental anguish. (Her world, and everything she cares about is burning, and dying. She feels both responsible, and feels the shock of such an enormous deception)

    Or

    -Anakin killed her(As stated by the Emperor. And very possibly alluded to be the scene)

    Or

    -The Emperor somehow killed her(as he knew that she had died. This would imply that he lied to Vader. It does make sense for him to do this, though, and could also have been alluded to in the film)

    Or(honorable mention)

    -Luke killed her from the womb. He is the spawn if satan.

    The first option is realistically plausible, both in the real world, and by extension, the Star Wars Universe(the fairy tale). The second and third option are plausible and in keeping with Star Wars universe, and depending on your beliefs, maybe the real one? So all three should be acceptable, legitimate causes in-universe.

    There's no problem here, unless you are upset that the story contradicts your head canon based on some details from the RotJ novelization.
     
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  6. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Though it may be (barely) plausible, I would argue that this is not supported by her actions and dialogue in the birthing scene. Indeed, it appears to be directly contradicted. In her final moments she's naming her children and pleading with Obi-Wan that Anakin still has good in him. Someone suffering from terminal mental anguish simply would not behave this way.

    I think we all know where I stand on this one. ;)

    Possible, but in this instance my argument against this is that it wouldn't fit as well from a thematic standpoint as Vader killing her (knowingly or otherwise.) Also, for Palpatine's part it seems to be more poetic if he is indeed telling the truth, which would fit the thematics and "rhyme" (as Lucas liked to put it) with Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" where truth is concerned.
     
  7. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Vader choked Padmé into unconsciousness but I believe Palpatine used his Dark Side powers to drain the life force from her body after she was flown off Mustafar and taken to the Polis Massa medical facility. He knew Anakin hadn't killed her, but by manipulating events behind the scene (something he'd been good at for decades) he used her death to give his new apprentice the final push over the ledge of darkness and into what he felt was irredeemable evil. The anguish of believing he'd murdered his own wife and consequently their unborn child would break what remained of his spirit, which it did.

    Until Luke came along twenty years later.
     
  8. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Anakin falling to the dark side is but one aspect of her anguish. We don't know whether she died from that anguish or not, but she certainly had it, from the moment Obi-Wan told her the truth, her denial, and racing to Anakin hoping he would dispell Obi-Wan's accusations. The truth would cut through her heart and leave her broken.

    She believes there is still good in Anakin because there is still good in him. I personally like the mysteriousness of her death.

    Besides, you didn't even comment on the fourth option!
     
  9. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We won't know about the fourth option until after The Last Jedi comes out ;)
     
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  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This seems like the Palpatine thing to do.
     
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  11. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm reluctant to go too much into the nitty gritty of how this would work since it's best left ambiguous, but in broad strokes; the way I see it when he force chocked her, it wasn't just a force choke. I think he literally gripped her very being with the force...and he never let go.

    Remember the context of the scene; he's highly emotional, blindingly furious even. Probably coursing with power after a day spent slaughtering everyone in his path. We've seen multiple times that even untrained force users can tap into an enormous surge of power when they're in a distressed emotional state, often without even consciously realising they're doing it and Anakin has the greatest force potential of anyone in the galaxy. With that in mind, what would his impulses be driving him towards when he reached out for Padme? Possession. She belongs to him. "You will not take her from me!"

    So when he was dying in that lava pit, burned, mutilated, in abject agony and by all rights should be dead already, how is it that he's still alive? The image that comes to mind for me is that of a drowning man at sea. Desperate, crazed and fighting to keep their head above water, even if that means clutching at the person next to them, pushing them down so that they may stay afloat a few seconds more. This isn't a conscious thing, it's panic driven animal instinct and between Obi-Wan leaving and being locking in that suit, I think it's a fair assumption that Vader was not a thinking creature, but a ball of incandescent fear and rage and desperation without form or direction other than "stay alive".

    So, with every heartbeat, he gripped a little tighter and tighter. The closer the black abyss came to swallowing him, the more he'd pull her down with him just to gain that extra inch of life. Eventually they switch places to he's getting stronger as she's getting weaker until he's pushed her down under the surface. So by the time he took his first breath with his new mask, she takes her last. All through this, his only conscious focus has been Padme. That's why his first words were of her and the source of his confusion: "She was alive, I felt it!"

    Just to reiterate: this is all metaphorical. An analogy based on how Lucas presented the scene. What is actually going on could be called a force link, a life drain, a transfusion of essence or even Padme willingly giving up her life force to save him. We don't know and it's best left that way.
    What ever it was, Palpatine was a witness to the whole process. That's how he know

    The cause of her "terminal anguish" would be irrelevant. The point is a person in that state of mind would either be raving hysterical or catatonic and they certainly wouldn't be aware of what's going on around them. If we're really entertaining the notion a person can "sad" themselves to death in just a matter of hours then there can't be any middle ground.
    So again, I don't think the text, subtext or imagery supports that interpretation.

    Well that's because there's clearly no disputing it! ;)

    I have two basic issues with this: -
    1) The mechanic of the whole thing. How did Palpatine even know she was on Mustafar? We saw in TCW that it takes two Sith, a particular alter and a lot of chanting to go after someone remotely. He was in Vader's surgical bay the whole time just standing there and grinning like a loon.
    2) The thematics. Ultimately, the story of Anakin's downfall is one of hubris. Self defeat. Nobody tricked him into becoming Darth Vader, he made that choice himself and could have turned back from the path at any point. So it makes more thematic sense if he really did kill her in a selfish, jealous rage.

    I rather think Palpatine is more likely to allow someone else to do themselves a mischief and take full advantage.
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think he would manipulate to his advantage. But, your larger points do still stand.
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    My main problem with the notion that Padme's death is Force-related is that there's two high-ranking Jedi with her at the time, and they both seem to defer to the medical droid's assessment of "she's lost the will to live".

    Now maybe Lucas intended for there to be Force-related subtext, but as a student of both film and writing, I'd say that if that was the case, he maybe should have called a bit more attention to it.
     
  14. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sure, hence: "allow". As in "facilitate", "expedite" etc. ;)

    The degree to which he'll directly meddle would depend on how much either outcome would suit him. In this instance I'd say a living Padme would be just as valuable to him as a dead Padme. The latter obviously to fuel Vader's hatred, the former to leverage his greed, or with a little prompting making her the focus of his hatred because who better? Vader was already half way there when he believed she deliberately betrayed him, it wouldn't take much coaxing or manipulation of Sidious's part to stoke that particular fire.
    Carrot or stick, either would work well for him, hence I see no reason for him to directly intervene in this case.

    You say that like a Jedi would know better. They're not doctors. They also defer to their navi-computers and astromechs when it comes to calculating hyperspace jumps, because that's what they're for.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  15. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Droid's medical assessment was "She's perfectly healthy" and "I don't what is wrong with her, but yes, guy that looks like Jedi, you're right. she's dying, and I will need to operate quickly to save the children."

    Here's a question:

    How did Vader die?

    Was it
    A) He was just exhausted from fighting Luke.
    B) He was inadvertently electrocuted by the Emperor
    C) He was deliberately electrocuted by the Emperor
    or D) He was exhausted and decided to commit suicide by removing his mask so he could "look upon his son with his own eyes."
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The droid flat out says, "She's lost the will to live." How could that not be intended as an assessment?
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In my experience, what the Jedi know or don't know largely seems to be dictated by what the writers think will best serve the plot.
     
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  18. LJones41

    LJones41 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Exactly.
     
  19. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because in the same sentence, the droid says they have no idea what's wrong with her. They only know that she is healthy, about to die, they can't stop it, and don't know why.

    Is it a weird line? Yeah, it is.
    Is it the cause of death? No. That is unknown.
    Besides, droids are weird, especially medical droids.
    Like AZI-345211896246498721347
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps the droid didn't know what was wrong with her because it made no sense to it that someone could die simply from losing the will to live.

    ...actually, I'm kind of with the droid on that one. :p