What Amazes Me
- Thread starter Withers
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Exactly what Jeyl said... KIRK did not ask Khan to surrender. Kirk told Khan to prepare to be boarded. UHURA adlibbed the surrender demand.
I mentioned this on another thread actually. In WWII the Nazis were commanded to kill survivors of damaged ships towards the end of the war when their position started to look dicey. What Kirk and Spock do here is very similar, except they're doing it for personal satisfaction rather than orders so one could argue that their motives are more reprehensible.
They have transporters, they have a brig, and if the Narada's shields are down they can TRY to beam her crew off in accordance with standard protocols for a ship in distress. Instead they opt to murder them! I find it extremely disturbing that I am supposed to admire murderers - that is to say they are not acting in self defence when they fire, their sensors tell them the ship is no threat, and that the ship is being destroyed. They cannot tell that Nero speaks for his whole crew and they do not even know for sure if there are children on board (the Narada has female crew and they've had 25 years in which to breed).
Inglorious Basterds and NuBattlestar Galactica toyed with American double standards knowingly, so those who aren't self aware enough to spot the double-standard can applaud the heroes, while those who are slightly more morally evolved (seen as left-wing attitudes in some circles) can shake their heads and tut at the hypocrisy of humanity.
In NuTrek Kirk is promoted to command his own ship. This is one of the reasons why I felt Kirk wasn't ready for command. He clearly bases his decisions on his own personal feelings rather than Starfleets rules - that makes him a ticking time bomb!
I enjoyed the film and I can laugh at its flaws but I can also see why others who have invested more love in their heroes over the years might be less generous.
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I-Am-Zim
Captain
I was glad to see Nero fry, so I don't have a problem with this. 
I was glad to see Nero fry, so I don't have a problem with this.
What about Bill at communications? He was kind to animals, fathered two children with that muscly female romulan, objected to Nero's plans but couldn't abandon his family, and had one day left to retirement?
I can see why some gung-ho people think it is ok to summarily execute people. The British used to execute their OWN men for cowardice if they suffered post traumatic stress in WWI after all and they thought that was fine at the time.
However, I will say that a similar attitude adopted by Israeli forces saw schools and UN buildings bombed in the conflict last year on the grounds that the enemy combatants were in among them and you can't make an ommlette without breaking some eggs and/or children. This is commonly known as a war crime.
So in addition to breaking Starfleet Regulations and cheating on a test, Kirk has committed a war crime. Starfleet's finest! I'm rooting for the Klingons in the next movie.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
I was glad to see Nero fry, so I don't have a problem with this.
That is scary. This statement is indicative of why the world is in the state it's in at this time. Too many people have lost their respect for life. That scene bothered me too. It would heve been more Kirk-like if he had offered assistance and at least tried to help some of the crew beam off the Narada. After exhausting all options, and there was nothing else that could have been done, then they could have gotten away from the event horizon. Kirk's sumamry execution of a defenseless enemy was apalling to say the least. I lost what little respect I had for his character at that point.
The most hilarious example I've ever seen in a movie is the Rookie. Clint Eastwood catches the main villain at the end and, instead of arresting him, he shoots him at point blank range with a bullet ENGRAVED WITH THE PERP'S NAME. After a lengthy and thorough internal investigation, Clint is promoted!
This is a slippery slope to the Mirror Universe Federation. I hope that Spock Prime can see that he has created a monster and will take steps to kill NuKirk in the next movie using a highly trained assassin in the nubile form of Janice Rand.
'Photon torpedo jubblies? How did I miss those babies?'
This is a slippery slope to the Mirror Universe Federation. I hope that Spock Prime can see that he has created a monster and will take steps to kill NuKirk in the next movie using a highly trained assassin in the nubile form of Janice Rand.
'Photon torpedo jubblies? How did I miss those babies?'
I was glad to see Nero fry, so I don't have a problem with this.
What about Bill at communications? He was kind to animals...
So, supposedly, was Hitler. Godwin'd!
More seriously, the so-called "Nuremberg defense" has been held invalid under Principle IV, and Bill can not even claim to have been following the lawful orders of a recognized government. So screw 'im.
I was glad to see Nero fry, so I don't have a problem with this.
What about Bill at communications? He was kind to animals...
So, supposedly, was Hitler. Godwin'd!
More seriously, the so-called "Nuremberg defense" has been held invalid under Principle IV, and Bill can not even claim to have been following the lawful orders of a recognized government. So screw 'im.
Lol - yeah, I knew my defence was weak. His children didn't deserve to die though.
Turning it on its head though, what would Kirk's defence be to multiple charges of murder?
The same as Spock's/Pike's defense for visiting Talos IV or Kirk's defense for stealing and blowing up the Enterprise: his All-Around Awesomeness.
Politically, it would probably have been difficult to bring charges against Kirk for killing terrorists who were on the verge of destroying Earth after having destroyed Vulcan.
The same as Spock's/Pike's defense for visiting Talos IV or Kirk's defense for stealing and blowing up the Enterprise: his All-Around Awesomeness.
Politically, it would probably have been difficult to bring charges against Kirk for killing terrorists who were on the verge of destroying Earth after having destroyed Vulcan.
They'd never get a jury of vulcan's to convict!
But that's not what I asked. I asked what his defence would be... i.e. his legal defence.
Withers
Captain
I can't believe this thread is still going on. If the moderator knew about this...
Didn't he offer to help? The he and Spock have time for a conversation between them and then Nero (in the cheesiest way possible) declines said help? I also thought they had to destroy the Narada because black hole = time travel? (As dumb as that is that's how I made sense of it.)
I was glad to see Nero fry, so I don't have a problem with this.
That is scary. This statement is indicative of why the world is in the state it's in at this time. Too many people have lost their respect for life. That scene bothered me too. It would heve been more Kirk-like if he had offered assistance and at least tried to help some of the crew beam off the Narada. After exhausting all options, and there was nothing else that could have been done, then they could have gotten away from the event horizon. Kirk's sumamry execution of a defenseless enemy was apalling to say the least. I lost what little respect I had for his character at that point.
Didn't he offer to help? The he and Spock have time for a conversation between them and then Nero (in the cheesiest way possible) declines said help? I also thought they had to destroy the Narada because black hole = time travel? (As dumb as that is that's how I made sense of it.)
-Withers-
Not quite. They offered asssitance and NERO refused. That refusal would not prevent them from beaming off the crew and placing them under arrest of course. Their sensors indicated that the vessel was being crushed. I agree that if there was a possibility that the ship might survive another wormhole trip, that might have been jusification for destroying it. It doesn't really justify killing everybody on board if there is an alternative though. All they had to do was establish in dialogue that the gravity flux was preventing a transporter lock and then try NOT to salivate while they blew up the romulans.
Plus vulcans are pacifists. While I can accept that the trauma of recent events became too much for him, I really hope they get to grips with what that means in the sequel. I really don't want Star Trek to become Team America in space.
Plus vulcans are pacifists. While I can accept that the trauma of recent events became too much for him, I really hope they get to grips with what that means in the sequel. I really don't want Star Trek to become Team America in space.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
The Narada was gone. The black hole had opened inside the ship. It was being drawn in from the middle. It was obvious in those scenes that the Narada was being torn to shreds. This is evidenced by all the shots of the ship breaking into tiny pieces. There was absolutely no justification for Kirk to "arm phasers. Fire everything we've got." That was a waste of ammo since the Narada would be crushed in seconds anyway. That move was motivated purely by revenge. After Nero refused assistance, Kirk should have at least attempted to beam some of the survivors over to the Abramsprise. But instead, he just said "friggum! Blow 'em up! That's what we honorable Starfleet officers do! We kill defenseless people. That's when they are the most vulnerable! Kick 'em while they're down! Do it! Do it! Do it! Yeah, that's right, I'm Awesome!"
Withers
Captain
I dunno man... those people had a long time to get away from Nero if they had any objection to what he was doing. They were civilians so it wasn't even like they were highly trained Romulan soldiers that were indoctrinated to follow orders but they did anyway. Their Romulus had been destroyed so, after committing genocide on Vulcan, none of them really had much to live for anyway. I just don't think they'd be any more receptive to rescue than Nero was.
Still, you're right I think, a throw away line about not being able to use the transporters wouldn't have killed anybody (No...pun intended).
A lesson learned in DS9 reiterated by those actions in this film is...? You don't promote people to Captain straight out of the academy. When you do they get trigger happy for some reason. "Abramsprise..." That's all you really have to say.
Still, you're right I think, a throw away line about not being able to use the transporters wouldn't have killed anybody (No...pun intended).
If you're talking about Spock's reaction during that moment I think it was wholly appropriate. Prime Spock didn't have the traumatic experience of losing his mother and his planet on the same day. If he had he'd probably have turned out a lot more human and a lot less Vulcan (behavior wise... I don't mean his ears would have been less pointed or anything like that.)
A lesson learned in DS9 reiterated by those actions in this film is...? You don't promote people to Captain straight out of the academy. When you do they get trigger happy for some reason.
"Abramsprise..." That's all you really have to say. -Withers-
Why assume that all of the romulans supported Nero? For all we know, any objecters were in Nero's brig. You and Kirk are making assumptions based on no evidence one way or another. Kirk could well have been killing dozens of innocent romulan civilians. This is why I raised the Israeli example. Killing innocent people while you are shooting at villains should be avoided if possible.
Withers
Captain
Captain Kirk didn't consult me before he gave those orders. I... I just want to make that clear. If I'd been there things would've been different.
Seriously though so are you. After 25 years if the hypothetical Romulan prisoners in the Brig that had a problem with what Nero was doing (and lets be honest- that's a pretty big stretch) hadn't escaped they weren't trying very hard were they? I mean it was a civilian ship anyway. Wouldn't it ergo that they wouldn't even have a brig? Why would a mining ship need one?
But, either way, its totally speculation. What I would know (had I been there) is that the ship destroyed the Kelvin, torched a bunch of Klingon ships, blew up Vulcan and tried to do the same to Earth. I'd be a pretty ineffective combat commander if I took the time to consider that there might be prisoners in the Brig from the crew that dissented from their Captain before I destroyed it.
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