What Amazes Me

[Withers]

It's clear we have differing opinions and while I'm a big fan of line by line replies (seriously- it's the best evidence that a person took the time to read what you so thoughtfully wrote down and I appreciate nothing on a forum more than that) I want to focus on just one thing in this reply because it speaks to the very heart of the matter.

I can accept that, as long as we stipulate such viewers must be ignorant or apathetic toward science, ethics, astronomy, medicine, physics, diplomacy, logic, etc.

You can accept that the film wasn't garbage so long as you can, in the same breath, call everyone who thought so ignorant and/or apathetic about subjects like science, ethics, astronomy, medicine, physics, diplomacy, logic etc.

Because all of those things have been viewed from a realistic standpoint in every other Trek that exists right? Oh wait...

This was brought up in a different thread but I was in total agreement; the problem is that this film is split in to two camps. Either you loved it and are a complete moron or you hated it... and you're a TOSer. You've made it seem as though I did nothing but laud the film and declare it to be the best thing ever and I didn't do that. Since I enjoyed it and thought of it as good sci-fi, however, I must be an idiot (or at best apathetic about a whole host of things that exist in equally silly parameters in other Treks). If the statement you made were a critique on all Star Trek I would accept it. Since you have limited it to specifically this film it comes across as the sort of bile that is spewed mercilessly at this film by the "hardliner" "purists" that divide the fandom along a border that doesn't really exist.


-Withers-​

 

[startrekrcks]

Am I a idiot for loving NuTrek

 

[Photoman15]

What's sad is that anyone can get upset at a television show or a movie. It's just entertainment. It isn't the Bible or the Constitution or the Magna Carter. I know, this website wouldn't be here if everyone just looked at Trek as entertainment, but that's all it is. Are there poignant messages in some of them, yes. But it's just a movie. And this last one brought in new fans that TREK needs to survive as us older ones start dying.

 

[BurntSynapse]

Yeah, it's amazing how people who don't like the film but don't suggest people who do are idiots get shouted down, too.

Personally, I'm a fan of 'the majority loved it, therefore you are a moron' argument. I thought one of the guiding principles of Trek was that the underdog's opinion is every bit as right as the majority's and sometimes..more so?

Withers, from what I've seen it looks like you're taking a bad burn in the Classic forum and getting (likely justifiably) a bit defensive of your views.

People who went to see the Trek 09 film hoping for the best and expecting the worst are not any less a fan than you claim to be. I hoped for a good movie but based on Abrams' background and Orci/Kurtzman's I had little reason to expect it to be so based on my own personal tastes.

I had no real opinion of AOK prior to this film, having not really paid attention to their prior work until after seeing ST09, I'm not really tracking many threads either...

I would disagree with the irrational "underdog vs. majority" argument as an ad hominem fallacy. A position is not justified or reasonable based on who advocates the opinion or how popular it is.

 

[Withers]

What's sad is that anyone can get upset at a television show or a movie. It's just entertainment.

I just hate that it's so personal. "You like/don't like exhibit A?" "No." Why?" "(Explains)." "Then you're a retarded moron the likes of which ought to be locked away if not just beheaded." I've seen the converse just as much (though not about this movie) that there's nothing wrong with certain elements of Trek or anything that is perceived as a flaw can be "explained away." There's no middle ground for conversation in some of the people I've run across and that begs the question of their motive for signing up on a forum at all in the first place.

Either way there's a difference between a discussion between two people with differing opinions and a patronizing lecture from one side to the other about how they're wrong and unintelligent for being wrong.

(Since when did ones ability to suspend disbelief start equating to their relative intelligence anyway?)

A position is not justified or reasonable based on who advocates the opinion or how popular it is.

I'll agree with that. In 8th grade debate my favorite way to exemplify that logic was to point out that there was a time when the majority of respected people in the United States thought slavery was acceptable and that women shouldn't be able to vote. In this case, however, the benefits of the majority opinion are very real. Because so many people liked the film (because it made money) there'll be more material added to the STU. As long as its growing it isn't dead.

-Withers-​

 

[BillJ]

Am I a idiot for loving NuTrek

If you love it unconditionally... then yes.

One of my favorite episodes of the Original Series is The Naked Time. In the episode Scotty and the Engineer of the Week are told they're wanted on the bridge so they both leave Riley to watch Engineering during a critical orbit. Drives me fucking nuts that they didn't think through the stupidity involved to move the story forward. But they at least had the excuse that they were working on a weekly schedule.

I see alot of the same stupidity is used to move the story forward in Trek XI and yet they had a year to work on it.

Doesn't mean that I don't see bright spots in the new film, because there are plenty of them.

 

[BurntSynapse]

I see alot of the same stupidity is used to move the story forward in Trek XI and yet they had a year to work on it.

Did they really have a year for plot and story development? Based on the poor quality of the script, I would feel silly if I didn't doubt that claim. It hardly seems possible to blow so many lines if one had an entire year to catch the mistakes and fix them.

Doesn't mean that I don't see bright spots in the new film, because there are plenty of them.

Exactly! There's space sequences that are unbelievably good - visually the best (for me) since Starship Troopers, (any recommendations on better?), yet taken as a whole I doubt the same effort-per-minute would be required to reconcile the defects in 2 randomly selected primitive TOS, 60's-fare episodes relative to the effort it takes to have ST09 make sense from a dialog and plot perspective. I hear the music composition is crappy, but I don't feel qualified to judge that metric for a film - it worked for me, but I have NO support for saying it should win an award. I'm ignorant of that!

I may be highly biased because of my current research focus, but I think the movie's foundation (the script) has a quantity and quality of defects excluding it from consideration as a "good" film overall.

What I don't understand is when people have this idea that they can't admit they are ignorant of some topic, I think its pretty easy to judge the many things I'm ignorant about - and in such cases, I try to withhold judgment. I certainly don't argue the music is good simply because I liked it.

It seems to come down to whether we equate personal enjoyment with some generally accepted level of quality that a judge or assessor would use.

 

[Devon]

It was a flawed film with some good moments sprinkled throughout.

To you at least (your Mona Lisa analogy and all,) but they are going to look and see that what they did worked for most everyone else who don't share that opinion.

Sadly true.

The film made many Trekkies happy (much more than some of the other Trek films even,) the film made many others happy (definitely tons more than most Trek did,) the film made lots of money (more than 9/10 of other films.) There is absolutely no sane rationale for veering away from the formula that worked just to make the other 5% happy (see "Insurrection" and how "well" that worked out after "First Contact.") Nothing "sad" about it in the least, life goes on.

 

[startrekrcks]

Maybe it is because I became a Star Trek fan because of NuTrek it got me into watching TOS and the other series as well so there's hardly anything wrong with that.

 

[RookieBatman]

I see alot of the same stupidity is used to move the story forward in Trek XI and yet they had a year to work on it.

Yeah, I think that's the problem I had with it, too. What you may call Fridge Logic, except some people like us noticed while the film was still running. And yes, I fully agree that my favorite Trek movies like TWoK and TUC had Fridge Logic in them as well, but, for whatever reason, I missed it at the time (probably because when I first saw them, I was too young--now that I can see them, nostalgia has taken over). No movie's perfect, certainly, but I say this one had more such moments than most.

Doesn't mean that I don't see bright spots in the new film, because there are plenty of them.

Very true, and in the interest of parity, let me just toss out a few since I just made a criticism:

1. Leonard Nimoy (Seems like a no-brainer)
2. The Kelvin scene (I could watch that scene again and again. It was exemplary.)
3. Simon Pegg (Genius casting! If someone had told me to picture Simon Pegg with black hair spouting a Scottish accent, I would've laughed at him. Well, I ended up laughing with him instead. )

And you know what? At the end of the day, I'm more a fan of TV than movies. If by some miracle, a new show ends up resulting from this (perhaps with a different ship/crew, so the movies can continue unabated), and I like it, I will publicly retract every criticism I ever made about the movie.

This is how I like to think of it; I wasn't too terribly entertained by STXI, but it did revive the franchise, so if anything comes out of the franchise from this point on that I like, I have STXI partially to thank for it.

 

[startrekrcks]

that is great but can't I love Star Trek XI after all it has made me a Trek fan and appreciate the other series as well.

 

[RookieBatman]

I personally don't have a problem with that. I think there are people in the "love it" camp who say we're wrong to dislike it, and there are people in the "hate it" camp who say you're wrong to like it. I disagree with both sentiments. There's nothing wrong with loving a movie that someone else thinks is stupid, and there's nothing wrong with hating a movie that someone else thinks is perfect. But if you say either of those things out loud on a board like this, you'd better be prepared to defend it logically.

 

[startrekrcks]

there's absolutely nothing wrong with having a differing opinion sure there isn't.

 

[BurntSynapse]

But if you say either of those things out loud on a board like this, you'd better be prepared to defend it logically.

I generally agree, except that I would say "I enjoyed it" is a personal statement of a subjective emotion, not really amenable to any interpersonal debate. If you think you have a toothache hurting you, it would be very strange for anyone to request defense of your assessment.

When someone suggests however, that "the writing was good", or "Trek should win Best Picture" then I will certainly expect a strong, believable defense that addresses the evidence of poor quality, scientific ignorance, and contradictory visuals.

I think the pacing, special effects, casting, sets, costumes, and makeup are all nothing short of spectacular - and yet I was STILL unable to really enjoy the film.

 

[Therin of Andor]

and yet I was STILL unable to really enjoy the film.

Not our fault. Maybe you're just hard to please.

 

[BillJ]

and yet I was STILL unable to really enjoy the film.

Not our fault. Maybe you're just hard to please.

And we continue to wonder why we're subjected to things like Survivor, American Idol and Wife Swap?

 

[Therin of Andor]

And we continue to wonder why we're subjected to things like Survivor, American Idol and Wife Swap?

I dunno, the first season of "Survivor" was fascinating TV, and I have thoroughly enjoyed the annual "Australian Idol" series.

You can keep "Wife Swap". Bleah!

 

[Shazam!]

I sat there and didn't think.

Like that's okay.

 

[BurntSynapse]

I sat there and didn't think.

Like that's okay.

Not only was it presented as OK, it was presented as a positive state which enhanced enjoyment. In other words: ignorance is bliss. While there is truth in that, it is a reprehensible truth that can, as it is here, support the deliberate choice of ignorance, which I generally consider morally unacceptable for anything to do with social interactions such as when we offer statements of opinion or judgment to others.

and yet I was STILL unable to really enjoy the film.

Not our fault. Maybe you're just hard to please.

Compared to many or most? Absolutely!

On the other hand, those standards helped me win the hand of a woman better than that which I dreamed of as ideal... The stoic philosophy does have its advantages as well!

 

[Withers]

I sat there and didn't think.

This has been misconstrued (twice now) as evidence that I sat through the film with drool coming out of mouth. I thought the context of the statement would've made clear what I meant but since it did not, allow me to clarify; I sat there and didn't think... about things that were wrong with what I was seeing. I just sat there and watched it. I just sat there and enjoyed what I was seeing. I wasn't jotting down mental notes about what could've made it better or what didn't make sense to me.

Is that better?

I think there are people in the "love it" camp who say we're wrong to dislike it, and there are people in the "hate it" camp who say you're wrong to like it.

I think both of these camps are smaller than either one of them would like everyone to believe. No reasonable science fiction lover could say this film is complete garbage and isn't worth the time of day but at the same token no reasonable science fiction lover could say this film is flawless and couldn't have been done any better. But then I haven't really heard anybody say any of those things.

I do, however, think that the disgust from the "purists" by far outweighs (and will outlast) any over the top "fangasming" over this movie. Why? Because they've lasted through four series, and now five movies- the grave is the only things that's ever going to put that fire out.



-Withers-​