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Well that's "Court Martial" and "Obsession" gone then (SPOILERS)

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I think you need to think a bit before you post any more snide comments. You have 30-some posts and you've already pissed off a few people on here. Chill out a little bit. Rein in the smart-ass attitude. It makes you look like a bratty kid.


Couldn't reply so you attacked me instead? Got it! :techman:
(sigh)...

I'm guessing you're twelve?

If so... you're acting your age and we should accept it. I don't expect emotional maturity in kids.

If not, well... you've already attacked me, and several others, in pretty snide, smart-assed fashion in several threads. And you seem not to be able to grasp the arguments being made in any case... prefering, instead, to insult and berate (which is really sort of amusing).

Again... you're new here. You don't know the personalities or the dynamics. My advice is to rein in the attempts to "score points with putdowns." It's not gonna wash around here.


Didn't reply to my point yet. My comparisons to changes to the Enterprise, Klingons in TMP, Chekov being recognized by Khan in TrekII and the Enterprise's age in TREKIII are valid. Comparing Star Trek to a World War II film is not.
 
If the spoilers turn out to be true, they have.
So he is no longer this heroic, smart, almost larger-than-life, charismatic, intelligent, born-to-be-a-leader character...
That can describe many, many people, so one could easily be 'not Kirk' and still be as you describe.

Yes, iconic character and all that.
There isn't actually much that differentiates Kirk from other heroic figures.
What's your point?
 
I think you need to think a bit before you post any more snide comments. You have 30-some posts and you've already pissed off a few people on here. Chill out a little bit. Rein in the smart-ass attitude. It makes you look like a bratty kid.


Couldn't reply so you attacked me instead? Got it! :techman:
I'll give you an answer.

I haven't enjoyed any of the Star Trek movies as much as an average episode of TOS. I've seen each TOS episode many times; most of the movies just a couple. They just don't do much for me.

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And.....your point is? It's not about how change affects one person.

Or did the change of Klingons in TMP cause that movie to bring in 0$?
 
Yes, iconic character and all that.
There isn't actually much that differentiates Kirk from other heroic figures.
What's your point?
The main thing that differentiates Kirk from others is his personal history, which is what this film seems to be erasing. Therefore, 'Kirk' is being removed from Star Trek and being replaced by a stereotype.

It might make an entertaining movie, but it's not what I was led to expect of this next 'Star Trek' film.

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It might make an entertaining movie, but it's not what I was led to expect of this next 'Star Trek' film.

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No no no!

They're trying to make an ENTERTAINING movie?! How dare they? Star Trek is not supposed to be entertaining. NO NO NO!!!! :scream::scream::scream:
 
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I haven't enjoyed any of the Star Trek movies as much as an average episode of TOS. I've seen each TOS episode many times; most of the movies just a couple. They just don't do much for me.
And.....your point is? It's not about how change affects one person.

Or did the change of Klingons in TMP cause that movie to bring in 0$?
My point is that I don't particularly like the changes made to TOS post 1969. I thought I kept it pretty simple.

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I haven't enjoyed any of the Star Trek movies as much as an average episode of TOS. I've seen each TOS episode many times; most of the movies just a couple. They just don't do much for me.
And.....your point is? It's not about how change affects one person.

Or did the change of Klingons in TMP cause that movie to bring in 0$?
My point is that I don't particularly like the changes made to TOS post 1969. I thought I kept it pretty simple.

---------------

Which has nothing to do with the current discussion....
 
Yes, iconic character and all that.
There isn't actually much that differentiates Kirk from other heroic figures.
What's your point?
The main thing that differentiates Kirk from others is his personal history, which is what this film seems to be erasing. Therefore, 'Kirk' is being removed from Star Trek and being replaced by a stereotype.

It might make an entertaining movie, but it's not what I was led to expect of this next 'Star Trek' film.

Kirk was a stereotype (even though a good one) from the get-go.
 
And frankly, to be blunt, Trek fans who didn't enjoy anything post-1969 are definitely NOT the intended audience for this film.

If this film is going to be profitable, Trek fans like that must be ignored all at costs!!!
 
Kirk was a stereotype (even though a good one) from the get-go.
Kirk began as a stereotype, but became differentiated as we learned more about his personal history. People always begin to deviate from a stereotype as we learn more about them.

Apparently all that we thought we knew about Kirk is about to be washed away and we're starting over with a stereotype again. I'm just not a fan of that idea.


And frankly, to be blunt, Trek fans who didn't enjoy anything post-1969 are definitely NOT the intended audience for this film.
I didn't say I wasn't a fan of post-1969 Star Trek, I said I wasn't a fan of post-1969 TOS Star Trek.

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Seriously, there was a faction of people who judge "Casino Royale" on the color of Bond's hair? Do you believe that?

Curse them. If only they have found a suitable actor with the correct hair color...the last two Bond movies would not have been such a failiure....oh wait.....
 
I haven't enjoyed any of the Star Trek movies as much as an average episode of TOS. I've seen each TOS episode many times; most of the movies just a couple. They just don't do much for me.
And.....your point is? It's not about how change affects one person.

Or did the change of Klingons in TMP cause that movie to bring in 0$?
My point is that I don't particularly like the changes made to TOS post 1969. I thought I kept it pretty simple.

---------------
I've already got "Blue Ranger" figured out. He's here to pick fights. Not to engage in any form of thoughtful discussion. :rolleyes:
 
And.....your point is? It's not about how change affects one person.

Or did the change of Klingons in TMP cause that movie to bring in 0$?
My point is that I don't particularly like the changes made to TOS post 1969. I thought I kept it pretty simple.

---------------
I've already got "Blue Ranger" figured out. He's here to pick fights. Not to engage in any form of thoughtful discussion. :rolleyes:


Apparently, "fights" = "uncomfortable facts" :)
 
It's 3.0 or 2.5 at a minimum for filmed Trek since TNG constituted a soft reboot of the universe, altering several points in the canon/continuity to fit GR's changed perspective between 1964 and 1987.

Hell, Gene Roddenberry's view of Trek was inconsistent from 1964 to 1987.

TMP was the first soft reboot of Trek, then it Meyer-Bennett rebooted it in TWOK with TNG being GR's attempt to rebooted back from that.
None of those were "reboots." None required you to forget any element of the history you'd learned in the prior shows.
So TNG ignoring that the Third World War = the Eugenics Wars and it occurred in the 1990's and wasn't followed by a global nuclear holocaust in the 2050's isn't a rewriting of the ST universe's fictional history? That change in back story along with other elements, notably the wholesale alterations to Cochrane's personal history and the development of warp drive, place the original series and the ENT-24th century shows in closely parallel but distinct continuities reconcilable only by rationalization and hand-waving.

"Reboot" doesn't mean "changing things in-universe." "Reboot" means "ERASING THINGS THE AUDIENCE ALREADY KNOWS."
Which the above examples constitute. If you think the Vulcans had FTL drive before Cochrane's discovery, you aren't paying attention to Spock's reaction.
 
The main thing that differentiates Kirk from others is his personal history...

That's completely untrue. Some Trek fans may have chosen to focus on his backstory as if it's significant after the fact (after TOS was finished) but that backstory had nothing to do with making him the character that he was.

Kirk's "personal history" was fabricated for plot purposes from week to week - it was throwaway stuff in order to make a particular story work better (giving him a reason to obsess over the creature in "Obsession," for example). In truth, it was the character's current behavior within the stories as both the writing and Shatner's performance evolved over the first season of "Star Trek" that made the character who he was.

It didn't matter that he had a brother, for example, since that factoid was only introduced as a "stumper" in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" and then used as a plot point in the very last season one episode. Never factored into a story or the character's motivation again after that, of course.

Most of Kirk's "personal history," in fact, was fabricated and used to accomplish a single plot-oriented goal in episode after episode: to give him a prior relationship (sometimes second-hand) with a guest-starring character in the week's story and therefore motivate some conflict in a hurry early in the story. This mainly meant a repetitious introduction of old girlfriends and dudes he'd served with (or their relatives) other than as the commanding officer of the Enterprise.

Kirk will be Kirk in this movie if he behaves as captain of the Enterprise in a way that fans will accept as being Kirk (yep, that's deliberately recursive). That's all that's required by the character's dramatic history.

Kirk was Kirk in "The Corbomite Manuever." The main character trait that he developed over time was a sense of humor.
 
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I still say if canon is no longer important, let's be really daring.

Let Kirk kill Spock with the Vulcan Death Grip about halfway through the movie, give Sulu a starring position and relegate McCoy and Scotty to background characters (in fact, let 'em swap duties), let Uhura be a child molester, and have Chekhov actually turn out to be Cochrane, time traveling for kicks along George Washington, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Nero, who turns out to really be a rogue, wise-cracking Borg who is just looking for a way to pro-create with Ilia. Pike could be a pre-op transexual who is secretly plotting to romance the metrosexual Kirk, himself steamily involved in an affair with the Hispanic Vina and one of Mudd's women. At some point, a bespectacled tribble must turn up to defend Pike in his court martial for jettisoning Captain April during an ion storm so he can take command of the Enterprise, ultimately allowing Kirk to assume that role after Pike is summarily executed for violating General Order Four -- now defined as not wearing white after Labor Day.

In between, have lots of space battles to make this film feel big and "awesome!"

Since the film is being made primarily for non-fans anyway, there's no need to stick to any "established" character traits or identities because A) that's part of that pesky canon that gets eliminated by this better and freer approach, B) non-fans don't really know Star Trek anyway so no detail is any more important than another, C) it opens the door to telling a really good story, and after all, that's more important than anything else, and D) the original Star Trek was never, ever consistent with itself, so this couldn't possibly be any worse. And since no one can really draw a line as to what is too much or too little adherence to canon, this is no worse or damaging a re-imagining of Star Trek.

:rolleyes:
Why the roll eyes? Help me to understand why some changes are okay, but this level of change is not, since we are proceeding under the assumption that canon is not important and that this film is being made primarily for people who are not fans and therefore know little or nothing about the show.

DOGS AND CATS LIVING TOGETHER!!!!
 
The main thing that differentiates Kirk from others is his personal history...

That's completely untrue. Some Trek fans may have chosen to focus on his backstory as if it's significant after the fact (after TOS was finished) but that backstory had nothing to do with making him the character that he was.

Kirk's "personal history" was fabricated for plot purposes from week to week - it was throwaway stuff in order to make a particular story work better (giving him a reason to obsess over the creature in "Obsession," for example). In truth, it was the character's current behavior within the stories as both the writing and Shatner's performance evolved over the first season of "Star Trek" that made the character who he was.

It didn't matter that he had a brother, for example, since that factoid was only introduced as a "stumper" in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" and then used as a plot point in the very last season one episode. Never factored into a story or the character's motivation again after that, of course.

Most of Kirk's "personal history," in fact, was fabricated and used repetitiously to accomplish a single plot-oriented goal in episode after episode: to give him a prior relationship (sometimes second-hand) with a guest-starring character in the week's story and therefore motivate some conflict in a hurry early in the story.

Kirk will be Kirk in this movie if he behaves as captain of the Enterprise in a way that fans will accept as being Kirk (yep, that's deliberately recursive). That's all that's required by the character's dramatic history.
Much of what you're saying is entirely true. The key elements of Kirk's backstory (as we think of it today) were created, as you say, on the fly.

The main elements which were not are those which were created in the "series bible" (which I know you've seen and are familiar with). This was a very limited description of the man's past... more of a discussion of who he was, not how he became that person. And, in broad sweeps that could be applied to virtually any "square-jawed hero" type.

Of course, his "history" did come into play over time, and that reflected in later scripts, in how Shatner acted the role, and how various directors directed the part and how various writers wrote the part. By the time TOS was over, we knew a lot more about who this guy was, what his history was, and why he was how he was. But it was still a pretty vague history.

You're also entirely correct that most of the "backstory" we know today was created, post-TOS, to fit the character we already had, not vice-versa. But then, that's how fiction always works, isn't it?

The fact that the backstory came later doesn't mean it's not significant. Only that it came later. The backstory gives a sense of reality to the character, ultimately.. "in-universe," these are the things that explain how this guy became who he we knew all along.

The thing is, these elements... ALL of these elements... are part of who the character now is. A new character could be started, with the same "kernel" of characteristics, and could eventually become someone much different. But that character isn't the SAME character, is it?

I'm 100% in favor of a new character who's "in the spirit of Kirk." I'd just prefer that this new character wasn't being presented as a replacement for the Kirk I already know. Will that be the case in this film? I was hopeful, earlier, that it wasn't the case, but I'm a lot less hopeful now, having seen a bit of the flick, the trailer, and so forth. It's not a bad character we're being given (though the lack of comprehension of why things work as they do in a military-patterned environment is simply stunning IMHO) but it's not the SAME character.

I'd be a whole lot happier if this was "Midshipman Peter J. Bryce" and "Lieutenant Stolk" on the "USS Farragut, NCC-28432." Or if it was Ensign Robert Taylor on the USS Repulse, set in TOS times... I mean, these are different characters and different situations we're seeing. And that's ultimately where the problem is coming from. Not that it's new characters... but that the new characters are being portrayed as the ones we know.
 
The characters (so far as we know) haven't changed.

If the spoilers turn out to be true, they have. That was the whole point of this thread! Kirk is supposed to serve on the Republic and the Farragut, but now it seems that he goes from Cadet to Captain of the Enterprise in about a week.
(emphasis mine)

I confess I'm still not sure from whence you draw this conclusion. Could you cite or provide links to the spoilers/articles from which you infer that the events referred to in "Court Martial" and "Obsession" (Kirk's service on the Republic and the Farragut) no longer take place, and that Kirk "goes from Cadet to Captain in about a week"? I'm sure I could have missed something -- there's been a lot to read, lately (including every single post in this forum) -- but I don't recall ever seeing anything which would lead me to draw the conclusions you give here.

If you could cite sources of the non-"if what we've been told" and "if _______ turns out to be true" variety and provide specific quotes, it might help clear up some of the confusion.
 
The only character whose backstory may have figured prominently in the way the actor and writers developed the character on screen was (obviously) Spock. Once his dual ancestry was established writers leaned specifically on it to provide motivation for his current behavior.

On other subjects...given Abrams' apparent penchant for complicated and non-linear plotting, what do you suppose is the possibility that some scenes in the movie will occur more than once in different ways and at different points in the narrative? I'm thinking specifically of the Vulcan rescue mission having more than one outcome, perhaps midway through the movie and then again at the climax.
 
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