Well that's "Court Martial" and "Obsession" gone then (SPOILERS)

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'd like it if they at least had some sort of reference to Gary Mitchell, who was such a pivotal character in Where No Man Has Gone Before (one of the best TOS episodes, IMHO). Maybe he's off sick and can't graduate with the rest of Kirk's class, as was the case I believe in Vonda N. McIntyre's 80's novel Enterprise: The First Adventure? That would be fine with me

But we probably won't get that though

The way Kirk seems to be acting in this latest film...I'd definitely more expect that of Gary, given what we see in WNMHGB.

 

[Dukhat]

I'd like it if they at least had some sort of reference to Gary Mitchell, who was such a pivotal character in Where No Man Has Gone Before (one of the best TOS episodes, IMHO). Maybe he's off sick and can't graduate with the rest of Kirk's class, as was the case I believe in Vonda N. McIntyre's 80's novel Enterprise: The First Adventure? That would be fine with me

But we probably won't get that though

Look, dude. Gary Mitchell was in one episode. One. Like Number One, Piper, Boyce, Kelso, Dehner and all the others who were only in one episode. They are just not that important in the large scheme of things, and certainly the average viewing audience would not know or care about them anyway. Even characters like Kevin Riley and Yeoman Rand who did have multiple episodes are just not as important as the big seven. And that's the way it is, so just get used to it.

Really? I think the reason why Nemesis sucked as much as it did was because of big plotholes and ignored continuity. Canon violations, if you will.

While I agree that Nemesis did have many plotholes, I'd like you to tell me just what about the movie violated canon, because I can't think of a single thing. And even if it did, that's not why the movie bombed.

 

[M'Sharak]

I'd like it if they at least had some sort of reference to Gary Mitchell, who was such a pivotal character in Where No Man Has Gone Before (one of the best TOS episodes, IMHO). Maybe he's off sick and can't graduate with the rest of Kirk's class, as was the case I believe in Vonda N. McIntyre's 80's novel Enterprise: The First Adventure? That would be fine with me

But we probably won't get that though

Was it ever established on-screen that Gary Mitchell was even in the same class as Kirk, though?

From the Memory Alpha article on Mitchell:

Mitchell was an Academy friend of James T. Kirk, stemming back to the time then-lieutenant Kirk was serving as an instructor and Mitchell was a first-year cadet. That year, Mitchell aimed a "little blonde lab technician" towards Kirk as a means to distract his rigid instructor, and whom Kirk, in turn, almost married.

It's hard to be sure, but this movie may simply not touch on that time at all. Doesn't make Mitchell go away -- he's just not part of this story. Same goes for the details cited from "Court Martial" and "Obsession". Omission and denial are two very different things.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Was it ever established on-screen that Gary Mitchell was even in the same class as Kirk, though?

The "Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk" line seemed to imply that he was. If not, then Gary wouldn't have cared about how, in Kirk's class, "you either think or sink".

 

[RobertScorpio]

While I'm not exactly pleased with this omitting of certain instances in Trek history, it's interesting to note that back when TNG first appeared, Gene Roddenberry himself said that there were some elements of TOS he did not consider to be "canonical" in light of the new series.

Good point EJA. Any STAR TREK.

I think these fans who are so bent out of shape over continuity problems need to realize that it was messed up even IN the so called canon universe...These people need to get a life.

Paramount/JJ, and some fans, including me, have decided that they are going to make a fun movie. And if it alienates fans who support an old line that had so many gaffos, then so be it..the time has come..

Rob

 

[Kanenas]

with their budget you would think they have a paid continuity expert who paid to know ever little detail.

I would also imagine marketing and other corperate creatures have marketing restrictions as to what is or is not allowed in order to assure the maximum viability of the restart of the franchise.

Just because a movie copies a genre does not mean success. Just contrast "golden compass" vs "narnia". It was apparent the suits who greenlighted "golden compass" had no clue about mass appeal beyond ooohing and ahhhhing over special effects.

I can not imagine they will take it too far. Quite frankly I hope they pretty much disregard all the books and fan films and stick to TOS and perhaps one episode of the animated series. (all the other treks could be cannon dumped without a slightest issue)

 

[trekkerguy]

OOOOOOOOMFGWTF!!!11!!11!!!!!!1!!!

*Phasers self in head*

 

[Squiggy]

Wasn't limiting the franchise to 40 years of continuity one of the reasons why it failed?

 

[trekkerguy]

Wasn't limiting the franchise to 40 years of continuity one of the reasons why it failed?

That and oversaturation yes.

 

[cooleddie74]

The guy who runs ex-astris-scientia.org has a novel idea he's bouncing about on one of his site's TREK XI discussion and theory pages. He says TREK XI can remain in a sort of semi-canon limbo like TAS until and unless Paramount forces the issue and doesn't leave any more leeway. That way he can try to enjoy the movie if at all possible(he's no fan right now based on his early opinions and predictions)and if it does blow chunks and violate a shitload of decades-old continuity, he can treat it like TAS.

 

[Basil]

I still say if canon is no longer important, let's be really daring.

Let Kirk kill Spock with the Vulcan Death Grip about halfway through the movie, give Sulu a starring position and relegate McCoy and Scotty to background characters (in fact, let 'em swap duties), let Uhura be a child molester, and have Chekhov actually turn out to be Cochrane, time traveling for kicks along George Washington, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Nero, who turns out to really be a rogue, wise-cracking Borg who is just looking for a way to pro-create with Ilia. Pike could be a pre-op transexual who is secretly plotting to romance the metrosexual Kirk, himself steamily involved in an affair with the Hispanic Vina and one of Mudd's women. At some point, a bespectacled tribble must turn up to defend Pike in his court martial for jettisoning Captain April during an ion storm so he can take command of the Enterprise, ultimately allowing Kirk to assume that role after Pike is summarily executed for violating General Order Four -- now defined as not wearing white after Labor Day.

In between, have lots of space battles to make this film feel big and "awesome!"

Since the film is being made primarily for non-fans anyway, there's no need to stick to any "established" character traits or identities because A) that's part of that pesky canon that gets eliminated by this better and freer approach, B) non-fans don't really know Star Trek anyway so no detail is any more important than another, C) it opens the door to telling a really good story, and after all, that's more important than anything else, and D) the original Star Trek was never, ever consistent with itself, so this couldn't possibly be any worse. And since no one can really draw a line as to what is too much or too little adherence to canon, this is no worse or damaging a re-imagining of Star Trek.

 

[ST-One]

I still say if canon is no longer important, let's be really daring.

Let Kirk kill Spock with the Vulcan Death Grip about halfway through the movie, give Sulu a starring position and relegate McCoy and Scotty to background characters (in fact, let 'em swap duties), let Uhura be a child molester, and have Chekhov actually turn out to be Cochrane, time traveling for kicks along George Washington, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Nero, who turns out to really be a rogue, wise-cracking Borg who is just looking for a way to pro-create with Ilia. Pike could be a pre-op transexual who is secretly plotting to romance the metrosexual Kirk, himself steamily involved in an affair with the Hispanic Vina and one of Mudd's women. At some point, a bespectacled tribble must turn up to defend Pike in his court martial for jettisoning Captain April during an ion storm so he can take command of the Enterprise, ultimately allowing Kirk to assume that role after Pike is summarily executed for violating General Order Four -- now defined as not wearing white after Labor Day.

In between, have lots of space battles to make this film feel big and "awesome!"

Since the film is being made primarily for non-fans anyway, there's no need to stick to any "established" character traits or identities because A) that's part of that pesky canon that gets eliminated by this better and freer approach, B) non-fans don't really know Star Trek anyway so no detail is any more important than another, C) it opens the door to telling a really good story, and after all, that's more important than anything else, and D) the original Star Trek was never, ever consistent with itself, so this couldn't possibly be any worse. And since no one can really draw a line as to what is too much or too little adherence to canon, this is no worse or damaging a re-imagining of Star Trek.

 

[Squiggy]

I'm going to go on a homicidal rampage, I swear to god.

 

[Basil]

I still say if canon is no longer important, let's be really daring.

Let Kirk kill Spock with the Vulcan Death Grip about halfway through the movie, give Sulu a starring position and relegate McCoy and Scotty to background characters (in fact, let 'em swap duties), let Uhura be a child molester, and have Chekhov actually turn out to be Cochrane, time traveling for kicks along George Washington, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Nero, who turns out to really be a rogue, wise-cracking Borg who is just looking for a way to pro-create with Ilia. Pike could be a pre-op transexual who is secretly plotting to romance the metrosexual Kirk, himself steamily involved in an affair with the Hispanic Vina and one of Mudd's women. At some point, a bespectacled tribble must turn up to defend Pike in his court martial for jettisoning Captain April during an ion storm so he can take command of the Enterprise, ultimately allowing Kirk to assume that role after Pike is summarily executed for violating General Order Four -- now defined as not wearing white after Labor Day.

In between, have lots of space battles to make this film feel big and "awesome!"

Since the film is being made primarily for non-fans anyway, there's no need to stick to any "established" character traits or identities because A) that's part of that pesky canon that gets eliminated by this better and freer approach, B) non-fans don't really know Star Trek anyway so no detail is any more important than another, C) it opens the door to telling a really good story, and after all, that's more important than anything else, and D) the original Star Trek was never, ever consistent with itself, so this couldn't possibly be any worse. And since no one can really draw a line as to what is too much or too little adherence to canon, this is no worse or damaging a re-imagining of Star Trek.

Why the roll eyes? Help me to understand why some changes are okay, but this level of change is not, since we are proceeding under the assumption that canon is not important and that this film is being made primarily for people who are not fans and therefore know little or nothing about the show.

 

[ST-One]

I still say if canon is no longer important, let's be really daring.

Let Kirk kill Spock with the Vulcan Death Grip about halfway through the movie, give Sulu a starring position and relegate McCoy and Scotty to background characters (in fact, let 'em swap duties), let Uhura be a child molester, and have Chekhov actually turn out to be Cochrane, time traveling for kicks along George Washington, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Nero, who turns out to really be a rogue, wise-cracking Borg who is just looking for a way to pro-create with Ilia. Pike could be a pre-op transexual who is secretly plotting to romance the metrosexual Kirk, himself steamily involved in an affair with the Hispanic Vina and one of Mudd's women. At some point, a bespectacled tribble must turn up to defend Pike in his court martial for jettisoning Captain April during an ion storm so he can take command of the Enterprise, ultimately allowing Kirk to assume that role after Pike is summarily executed for violating General Order Four -- now defined as not wearing white after Labor Day.

In between, have lots of space battles to make this film feel big and "awesome!"

Since the film is being made primarily for non-fans anyway, there's no need to stick to any "established" character traits or identities because A) that's part of that pesky canon that gets eliminated by this better and freer approach, B) non-fans don't really know Star Trek anyway so no detail is any more important than another, C) it opens the door to telling a really good story, and after all, that's more important than anything else, and D) the original Star Trek was never, ever consistent with itself, so this couldn't possibly be any worse. And since no one can really draw a line as to what is too much or too little adherence to canon, this is no worse or damaging a re-imagining of Star Trek.

Why the roll eyes? Help me to understand why some changes are okay, but this level of change is not, since we are proceeding under the assumption that canon is not important and that this film is being made primarily for people who are not fans and therefore know little or nothing about the show.

If I have to explain it to you, I actually shouldn't even bother to explain it to you.

 

[Basil]

No, please, bother -- I want to understand the logic of some changes being okay, how they are determined and by whom. (Please don't just the logical fallacy of appeal to authority.) That is, if you have a logical answer.

 

[DeafPoet]

I still say if canon is no longer important, let's be really daring.

Let Kirk kill Spock with the Vulcan Death Grip about halfway through the movie, give Sulu a starring position and relegate McCoy and Scotty to background characters (in fact, let 'em swap duties), let Uhura be a child molester, and have Chekhov actually turn out to be Cochrane, time traveling for kicks along George Washington, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Nero, who turns out to really be a rogue, wise-cracking Borg who is just looking for a way to pro-create with Ilia. Pike could be a pre-op transexual who is secretly plotting to romance the metrosexual Kirk, himself steamily involved in an affair with the Hispanic Vina and one of Mudd's women. At some point, a bespectacled tribble must turn up to defend Pike in his court martial for jettisoning Captain April during an ion storm so he can take command of the Enterprise, ultimately allowing Kirk to assume that role after Pike is summarily executed for violating General Order Four -- now defined as not wearing white after Labor Day.

In between, have lots of space battles to make this film feel big and "awesome!"

Since the film is being made primarily for non-fans anyway, there's no need to stick to any "established" character traits or identities because A) that's part of that pesky canon that gets eliminated by this better and freer approach, B) non-fans don't really know Star Trek anyway so no detail is any more important than another, C) it opens the door to telling a really good story, and after all, that's more important than anything else, and D) the original Star Trek was never, ever consistent with itself, so this couldn't possibly be any worse. And since no one can really draw a line as to what is too much or too little adherence to canon, this is no worse or damaging a re-imagining of Star Trek.

Why the roll eyes? Help me to understand why some changes are okay, but this level of change is not, since we are proceeding under the assumption that canon is not important and that this film is being made primarily for people who are not fans and therefore know little or nothing about the show.

Based on what we know, is there anything that made TOS awesome being changed?

Are you (or others) really so invested in the nacelles (for example) that it matters?

Christ, it's like Orci, Kurtzman and JJ snuck into your room in the middle of the night and hand-blasted you.

 

[Basil]

Yes, very snarky and insulting, but I still don't see a reasoned answer.

 

[scotthm]

Wasn't limiting the franchise to 40 years of continuity one of the reasons why it failed?

Yes, the franchise failed. That's why they only produced 680 television episodes and 11 movies.

---------------

 

[Basil]

Hello? Anybody out there? Responses don't seem to be coming so quick now.

Edit: Okay, dinner time. Will have to wait till later, I guess.