"We don't Surrender" Star Trek 6

[blueziggy]

Uptightgirl said:
Snowman in Elaan of Troyius the Enterprise after suffering numerous hits by the Klingon d7 used the dilithium crystals from the necklace to restore power and then fired only 2 or 3 shots at the d7 which was "damaged" according to spock and then ran away which implies that another 2 or 3 shots and it would have been destroyed.

so the enterprise needed a deus ex machina to win, thats what your saying right?

Uptightgirl said:
Also going back to TUC,Kirk could have raised shields taken a few hits and fired back with the perfectly legitimate reason that it was self defense and totally destroyed the Kronos 1.It was just one ship after all and the Klingons were in no position to go to war anyway as Spock said they had only 50 years of life left.

again, he was on a PEACE MISSION, easiest way to stop peace talks is to start firing

Uptightgirl said:
Investigation would have revealed that it was a Klingon bird of prey or Kirk could even have claimed it was a cloaked Romulan bird of prey had fired to stop a Federation/Klingon Alliance and shifted attention away from Starfleet and it was not the Enterprise which had fired those initial torpedos and in the film the Romulans Ambassador Nerchnov had said "there will never be a better time" to strike at the Klingons who were weak economically and in their military power.

investigation also revealed that there was only one shooter in the JFK assasination... yet everyone knows that there had to be more then one.

Uptightgirl said:
As the Kronos would be destroyed no one could contradict Kirk and his logs and no way the Klingons would make war about it as they were weak from the explosian and Starfleet would have been saved from the burden of looking after billions of uncontrollable Klingons which would have further weakened Starfleet and also allowed internal factionalism by the Klingon refugees to disrupt peace within the Federation and in fact would actually be an achilles heel for the Federation allowing the Romulans to take advantage of this.

Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.

sorry but this just begs the response of "it wasnt me, it was the one armed man."

lets just say, for ****s and giggles that everything you said happens the way you say. how does the movie play out?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

blueziggy said:
investigation also revealed that there was only one shooter in the JFK assasination... yet everyone knows that there had to be more then one.

"Everyone knows" lots of things for which there's no persuasive evidence. This, like flying saucers, is among the most persistent.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

santa biggles said:
And Dick Cheney.

And Admiral Cartwright.

Uptightgirl said:
As the Kronos would be destroyed no one could contradict Kirk and his logs and no way the Klingons would make war about it as they were weak from the explosian and Starfleet would have been saved from the burden of looking after billions of uncontrollable Klingons which would have further weakened Starfleet and also allowed internal factionalism by the Klingon refugees to disrupt peace within the Federation and in fact would actually be an achilles heel for the Federation allowing the Romulans to take advantage of this.

Commas and periods are your friends, mkay? And what you are advocating is the assassination of a foreign leader, as well as the destruction of the flagship of the Klingon Defense Force. ***Pause*** You talk about how no one would be able to "contradict Kirk or his logs", which is correct. But, um...did you forget that the Klingons aren't going to be all like "Dude, our leader and flagship is destroyed. The Enterprise was nearby but *gasp* look! Their logs show that they didn't fire (even though there are several bridge members who say that they did, or it appears that they did), so we must believe them!" Your action would also condemn the Klingons to death. Now, Klingons aren't necessarily my favorite Trek species, but that's a bit harsh. Also, Spock undertook this mission to save those billions of Klingons that you think would be a burden to the Federation. Because assisting your enemy and helping them out so that they ally with you is stupid, of course. Also, how would those Klingons "weaken Starfleet" and cause factionalism and disrupt the peace and cause the Romulans to take over? Did Martia loan you her joint or something?

You really need to watch this movie like, 15 times in a row. Because the message and the point of Kirk surrendering have missed you by a greater margin than any laser bolts a stormtrooper fires at Luke Skywalker.

Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.

Where did you get the Romulans from?! Seriously, they were in on the plot to kill Gorkon too, remember? So, any of the actions you've proposed would be playing into their hands once again. Are you sure you're not on the side of the conspirators? And the Klingons don't need to be made any more suspicious of anyone else.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Vixen said:

Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.

Where did you get the Romulans from?! Seriously, they were in on the plot to kill Gorkon too, remember? So, any of the actions you've proposed would be playing into their hands once again. Are you sure you're not on the side of the conspirators? And the Klingons don't need to be made any more suspicious of anyone else.

You missed the part in her theory where she gave up on pursuading us that the Enterprise instantly knew there was the cloaked BOP beneath them. Instead, Kirk is to randomly pull out of his ass that it was a cloaked Romulan warbird instead. Because, while people may not buy a cloaked Klingon ship firing, they'll be all over it if the Romulans did it!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

snowman1701 said:

Vixen said:

Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.

Where did you get the Romulans from?! Seriously, they were in on the plot to kill Gorkon too, remember? So, any of the actions you've proposed would be playing into their hands once again. Are you sure you're not on the side of the conspirators? And the Klingons don't need to be made any more suspicious of anyone else.

You missed the part in her theory where she gave up on pursuading us that the Enterprise instantly knew there was the cloaked BOP beneath them. Instead, Kirk is to randomly pull out of his ass that it was a cloaked Romulan warbird instead. Because, while people may not buy a cloaked Klingon ship firing, they'll be all over it if the Romulans did it!

So now she has Kirk lying to the Klingons?! Oh yeah, that'll really help.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Vixen said:

snowman1701 said:

Vixen said:

Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.

Where did you get the Romulans from?! Seriously, they were in on the plot to kill Gorkon too, remember? So, any of the actions you've proposed would be playing into their hands once again. Are you sure you're not on the side of the conspirators? And the Klingons don't need to be made any more suspicious of anyone else.

You missed the part in her theory where she gave up on pursuading us that the Enterprise instantly knew there was the cloaked BOP beneath them. Instead, Kirk is to randomly pull out of his ass that it was a cloaked Romulan warbird instead. Because, while people may not buy a cloaked Klingon ship firing, they'll be all over it if the Romulans did it!

So now she has Kirk lying to the Klingons?! Oh yeah, that'll really help.

You got it. But considering that Uptight is proposing the crippling of their government, I can't see a lie or two digging their hole too much deeper... they've likely already hit rock bottom

 

[A beaker full of death]

North Pole-aris said:

blueziggy said:
investigation also revealed that there was only one shooter in the JFK assasination... yet everyone knows that there had to be more then one.

"Everyone knows" lots of things for which there's no persuasive evidence. This, like flying saucers, is among the most persistent.

Recent computer video analysis confirms there was only the one shooter.

 

[Uptightgirl]

Blueziggy,Snowman and to Vixen I can only say your deus ex machina is not involved.Just watch that episode and you will see I am correct.

Also what was the point of a peace treaty as they were not even at war anyway.

So the reason for Gorkons visit is non-existant.

Romulans hostility existed towards the Klingons and the Klingons would easily have believed they had destroyed the Kronos.

"So now she has Kirk lying to the Klingons?! Oh yeah, that'll really help." saith Vixen.

It is not as if Kirk had not lied before.In the Corbomite Manoeveur he lied about the Corbomite device.

All politicians lie.All people lie.Everyone lies.

In Elann of Troyius the Enterprise dilithium crystals had been sabotaged by onboard andorians and they discovered replacements in the necklace which the Princess was wearing but meantime were hit 8 times by a d7.

When power was restored they fired 2 or 3 shots and the Klingons were damaged and ran away.Another 2 or 3 and they would be destroyed proving that the d7 is not a match for the Enterprise.

Remember Kirk never got a fair trial.It was a kangeroo court with people yelling from the multi storey aisles.

I never said Kirk should assassinate Gorkon.That had been done by the Kligons themselves.By surrendering you put yourself at great risk of death,torture and mutilation by unprincipled rogues.Further you display weakness.

Kirk could have countered that the Klingons had killed him as they really did not want peace.He should have beamed over Azetbur and convinced her that it was the Romulans or the Klingons by showing her the neutrino surge and playing the video logs as it would have been impossible to tamper with the evidence that quickly.Once she had been convinced she would be beamed back and would either seek out the conspirators or break off diplomatic relations with the Romulans or even destroy a few of their outposts in revenge.

Also evidence cannot be tampered with as if you did tamper with it,it can be shown that it has been tampered with.

Kirk could even have claimed that a bomb planted by klingon conspirators had exploded on board the Kronos and no one could have proved it otherwise as it happened in Federation space with the wreckage not available to the klingons.

In fact the film could have been similar to a ds9 episode in which The Romulns were enticed wth fake evidence.

In TUC the film could have been about how Kirk managed to convince the Klingons it was not him and that it was someone else.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Uptightgirl said:
Blueziggy,Snowman and to Vixen I can only say your deus ex machina is not involved.Just watch that episode and you will see I am correct.

*OUR* deus ex machina?!

Also what was the point of a peace treaty as they were not even at war anyway.

So the reason for Gorkons visit is non-existant.

They were in a cold war. They were still declared enemies, if in name only. Gorkon's visit was to establish real diplomatic relations and an alliance. So, his visit was not non-existent.

Romulans hostility existed towards the Klingons and the Klingons would easily have believed they had destroyed the Kronos.

That's not the point. The point is that Kirk would be lying about something that didn't happen to a ship that had been traveling under the Federation's protection.

It is not as if Kirk had not lied before.In the Corbomite Manoeveur he lied about the Corbomite device.

Different situation.

In Elann of Troyius the Enterprise dilithium crystals had been sabotaged by onboard andorians and they discovered replacements in the necklace which the Princess was wearing but meantime were hit 8 times by a d7.

When power was restored they fired 2 or 3 shots and the Klingons were damaged and ran away.Another 2 or 3 and they would be destroyed proving that the d7 is not a match for the Enterprise.

I'll let someone else deal with this...again.

Remember Kirk never got a fair trial.It was a kangeroo court with people yelling from the multi storey aisles.

Because he looked guilty. And so did McCoy. Klingon law is different from Federation law. And everyone from the Federation President on down were willing to sacrifice Kirk and McCoy in the name of interstellar peace. And Kirk knew what would happen if he surrendered.

I never said Kirk should assisinate Gorkon.That had been done by the Kligons themselves.By surrendering you put yourself at great risk of death,torture and mutilation by unprincipled rogues.Further you display weakness.

He also happened to save his ship, his crew, and the possibility of Federation-Klingon alliances and improved relations. And I didn't see any death, torture, or mutilation by unprincipled rogues in regards to Kirk and McCoy.

Kirk could have countered that the Klingons had killed him as they really did not want peace.

First of all, it was a small group of Klingons that didn't want peace, same in the Federation and Romulan Empire. Second, what would be the benefit?

He should have beamed over Azetbur and convinced her that it was the Romulans or the Klingons by showing her the neutrino surge and playing the video logs as it would have been impossible to tamper with the evidence that quickly.

They didn't figure out the neutrino surge until later, and originally thought it was coming from them. And all it takes is a few seconds and some pre-programming to deal with the evidence logs. A few presses of a button and some swipes...bam. Clean.

Once she had been convinced she would be beamed back and would either seek out the conspirators or break off diplomatic relations with the Romulans or even destroy a few of their outposts in revenge.

They didn't know who was responsible at first. Hence, the reason for Kirk's arrest. Second, why attack the Romulans as they weren't behind the assassination. All that would do is start a war with the Romulans, something that can't be afforded, and destabilize the region.

Also evidence cannot be tampered with as if you did tamper with it,it can be shown that it has been tampered with.

Um...no, that's not quite true. If you do a good enough job, you can get away with it. Sorry.

Kirk could even have claimed that a bomb planted by klingon conspirators had exploded on board the Kronos and no one could have proved it otherwise as it happened in Federation space with the wreckage not available to the klingons.

So, another lie to the Klingons who had trusted the Federation? You're not doing so good with the whole "Diplomacy and needs of the many" aspect of this.

In fact the film could have been similar to a ds9 episode in which The Romulns were enticed wth fake evidence.

Um, you mean In The Pale Moonlight? The one where the Romulans were very quickly able to figure out the information was a fake? The one that required an assassination to work?

In TUC the film could have been about how Kirk managed to convince the Klingons it was not him and that it was someone else.

BUT IT WASN'T. The point was improved relations between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, diplomacy and interstellar peace. It was never about Kirk being right! Even Kirk knew that!

 

[Sharr Khan]

Also what was the point of a peace treaty as they were not even at war anyway.

A cold war is still a war, plus the Federation was rendering aid for a disaster which threatened to kill off a huge chunk of Klingons - its what the Federation does. That's why Gorkon was visiting.

But the presiding faction in the Klingon Empire Gorkon and one presumes many in his government outside of the conspirators (who weren't just Klingons...) did want peace.

Sharr

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^That was a parallel to Chernobyl...

 

[A beaker full of death]

Uptightgirl said:

Also what was the point of a peace treaty as they were not even at war anyway.

So the reason for Gorkons visit is non-existant.

Fuck it. This is pointless. There oughta be an IQ test for this board. Or at least a literacy test.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Uptightgirl said:
Also what was the point of a peace treaty as they were not even at war anyway.

So the reason for Gorkons visit is non-existant.

They were in the middle of a cold war. They were working towards becoming allies.

Romulans hostility existed towards the Klingons and the Klingons would easily have believed they had destroyed the Kronos.

"So now she has Kirk lying to the Klingons?! Oh yeah, that'll really help." saith Vixen.

It is not as if Kirk had not lied before.In the Corbomite Manoeveur he lied about the Corbomite device.

All politicians lie.All people lie.Everyone lies.

You’re missing the point here. All available evidence points to the Enterprise. They have no reason to assume the Rolumans had anything to do with it, and again, THEY DO NOT KNOW THAT CLOAKED SHIPS CAN FIRE YET!!! I don’t know why I have to keep reviewing that, but I will continue to do so. So, think this through: It appears the Enterprise fired. There is no evidence that it was someone else. Kirk says Romulans did it. Because of a lack of evidence saying that a) it wasn’t the enterprise and b) that it was the romulans, the Klingons will be pissed because they will then know that they were lying. Besides, you know what it will ultimately do? Get the Feds into a war either way. It will either be with the Klingons because they are upset at being fired at then lied to, or it will be the Romulans because they are pissed about Kirk sicking the Klingons on then.

When power was restored they fired 2 or 3 shots and the Klingons were damaged and ran away.Another 2 or 3 and they would be destroyed proving that the d7 is not a match for the Enterprise.

Just because they ran away, doesn’t mean they were getting absolutely clobbered.

Remember Kirk never got a fair trial.It was a kangeroo court with people yelling from the multi storey aisles.

Actually, Kirk was imprisoned on valid grounds, and technically should have stayed there based on the charges. They were unable to make a case against Kirk, but he did admit that he was accountable for the actions of his men. That’s why he was in prison. His men did kill the Chancellor. So, you will note that it was a fair judgement.

I never said Kirk should assisinate Gorkon.That had been done by the Kligons themselves.

No, you said the Enterprise should destroy the Kronos 1. While Gorkon had been killed already, the rest of the government officials on the ship weren’t. Their ship blowing up would have killed them. Oh, and it wasn’t the Klingons who killed Gorkon. It was crewmen Burke and the other guy whose name I can’t remember. Samuel or Semino or something like that.

By surrendering you put yourself at great risk of death,torture and mutilation by unprincipled rogues.Further you display weakness.

That’s right! Screw the greater good! Cover you own ass and pride, Kirk!

Kirk could have countered that the Klingons had killed him as they really did not want peace.

You continue to forget that he needs evidence for his wild-eyed claims.

He should have beamed over Azetbur…

Good solution. Kidnap the next in line to become Chancellor right off her own ship. That’ll make friends.

… and convinced her that it was the Romulans or the Klingons by showing her the neutrino surge and playing the video logs as it would have been impossible to tamper with the evidence that quickly.

Okay, two things. One, The neutrino surge means nothing to them at that time, and the video logs only showed the torpedos hitting Kronos 1. Two, how do the video logs and a random neutrino emission automatically point to Klingons or Romulans?

Once she had been convinced she would be beamed back and would either seek out the conspirators…

Because she knows for a fact that there are conspirators on her ship

… or break off diplomatic relations with the Romulans or even destroy a few of their outposts in revenge.

My, you are a blood thirsty bugger, aren’t you? Once again, nothing points to the Romulans except Kirk’s word.

Also evidence cannot be tampered with as if you did tamper with it,it can be shown that it has been tampered with.

You will see above how I point out the uselessness of the evidence right then, especially, their random Neutrino signature you’re relying so heavily on.

Kirk could even have claimed that a bomb planted by klingon conspirators had exploded on board the Kronos and no one could have proved it otherwise as it happened in Federation space with the wreckage not available to the klingons.

Nothing except the view screen and sensors clearly showing several torpedo hits on the Kronos. How guilty does that look? Can’t explain away the evidence, so you blame it on something completely different and arbitrary (sort of like the romulan theory!). So, now not only do you want to make Kirk a liar (I read your Carobomite maneuver stuff the first time), you want to make him a lying murderer? That Kirk is one noble sonuvabitch in your mind, ain’t he?

In fact the film could have been similar to a ds9 episode in which The Romulns were enticed wth fake evidence.

Okay, I’m not even going to go into how awe-strikingly different those cases are. I mean, really different.

In TUC the film could have been about how Kirk managed to convince the Klingons it was not him and that it was someone else.

Guess what? THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT A GOOD PORTION OF THE FILM IS ALREADY ABOUT!!!!! And to think, just a page up you were accusing me of not paying very much attention to the movie. In fact, I’m going to steal and use your own quote:
And I quote:

I think you are confused about this.Let me explain it you.

But it does seem to be more fitting at the beginning of each of my posts. Mind if I just start doing that?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^It was Crewman Samno

 

[archeryguy1701]

Samno, thank you, Vixen. Geez, I need to learn to type faster. In the time it took me to type out my little counter-argument, you covered everything almost exactly like I did.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^I speed type and am hyped up on caffeine.

It doesn't necessarily matter how fast you type, so long as you can get your point across clearly.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Well, as long as my posts mostly make sense, then I'm having a good day.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^Which they do. :thumbsup:

 

[katie9918]

Kirk did the right thing by surrendering. He took a chance that the Klingons would have enough sense to think twice before firing on an unarmed, unshielded ship that was signaling its surrender.

Remember, as so many others have said, that this isn't a "space cowboys" film. This is a film about diplomacy.

 

[Plum]

... um, given the whole Horatio Hornblower of it all it's clear Kirk knew if he surrendered outright the Klingons wouldn't fire. Rules of War and all that.

Kirk's not an idiot, presumably. This isn't in the movie, but, I believe the one might infer it since Kirk, after surrendering, just got up and went to the transporter with no worries for his ship, right?