"We don't Surrender" Star Trek 6

[Dancing Doctor]

^535 Members of Congress, dear. (435 Representatives, 100 Senators))

And for you to say that all are corrupt shows either an unfortunate ability to only think absolutes (all or nothing, black and white, corrupt and honest) or a severe tendency to overexaggerate, both of which have been present in this thread.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Uptightgirl, if you're wishing to start a thread on the corruption of the US Congress, might I suggest you gain membership to The Neutral Zone?

 

[archeryguy1701]

Damn. To think we were actually able to let this die for a few days.

Uptightgirl said:

Cyke101 said:

Uptightgirl said:
most progress in humanity was made by individuals rather then by block votes.

Funny, much progress in humanity was made by peace rather than violence.

The poll means nothing except tyranny of the majority

By the way, I'm calling you out on some illogical thinking:

Actually reality proves you wrong.Most scientific and technological progress was made at the time of WW1
and WW2 and this progress filtered into general usage.

Both the progress you were originally referring to and the progress Cyke wasn't in reference to science and technology. Go back to thinking about human progress.

Tyranny of the majority means even though the majority is wrong,by imposing their will on the correct minority,they participate in the act of tyranny.

Take the U.S.A election system.

A very small minority know that all 533 Congressman are corrupt having been bought out by various big businesses who have "donated" election expenses to sway legislation their way.

The larger majority are also aware of this dimly.

Yet they continue to re-instate these corrupt officials into office.

Thus the minority who don't vote for these corrupt official have to suffer the tyranny of the majority who persist in re-electing corrupt officials to the detriment of all.

I hope you understand this simple example.

Oh, please, please, PLEASE don't start this, "Woe is me, I'm being persecuted and supressed," crap. Just because no one agrees with your opinion doesn't means the tyrranical majority is supressing you. And, there is no right or wrong. We're dealing with opinions. The logic you use to support your opinion may be right or wrong, but the opinions can't be. So don't glorify yourself or make yourself a martyr with the "I'm the right minority that is being knocked by the wrong majority" mentality. It doesn't suit you. So, how about you go back, read a few of the criticisms we had, and bring us new supporting reasons for us to buy into your view on things should have gone down, or just let this thread die again.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Guys, let's not go there. If you want to talk about political corruption, let's take it to TNZ.
Further, let's continue to argue about why Kronos 1 and the Enterprise getting into a fight after the torpedo incident was a good or bad idea without fighting with each other, all right?

 

[Uptightgirl]

archeryguy1701 said:
Damn. To think we were actually able to let this die for a few days.

Uptightgirl said:

Cyke101 said:

Uptightgirl said:
most progress in humanity was made by individuals rather then by block votes.

Funny, much progress in humanity was made by peace rather than violence.

The poll means nothing except tyranny of the majority

By the way, I'm calling you out on some illogical thinking:

Actually reality proves you wrong.Most scientific and technological progress was made at the time of WW1
and WW2 and this progress filtered into general usage.

Both the progress you were originally referring to and the progress Cyke wasn't in reference to science and technology. Go back to thinking about human progress.

Tyranny of the majority means even though the majority is wrong,by imposing their will on the correct minority,they participate in the act of tyranny.

Take the U.S.A election system.

A very small minority know that all 533 Congressman are corrupt having been bought out by various big businesses who have "donated" election expenses to sway legislation their way.

The larger majority are also aware of this dimly.

Yet they continue to re-instate these corrupt officials into office.

Thus the minority who don't vote for these corrupt official have to suffer the tyranny of the majority who persist in re-electing corrupt officials to the detriment of all.

I hope you understand this simple example.

Oh, please, please, PLEASE don't start this, "Woe is me, I'm being persecuted and supressed," crap. Just because no one agrees with your opinion doesn't means the tyrranical majority is supressing you. And, there is no right or wrong. We're dealing with opinions. The logic you use to support your opinion may be right or wrong, but the opinions can't be. So don't glorify yourself or make yourself a martyr with the "I'm the right minority that is being knocked by the wrong majority" mentality. It doesn't suit you. So, how about you go back, read a few of the criticisms we had, and bring us new supporting reasons for us to buy into your view on things should have gone down, or just let this thread die again.

Human progress is closely related to scientific progress and your attempt to disentangle it and say it is a discreet quantity unrelated to technological,engineering or medical advance,or knowledge in general would indicate a lack of historical perspective as well as a failure of understanding the reality of human progress which is a very complex,intertwined concept with a multiplicity of variables,interacting to produce a resultant vector.

The complex intertwining of human progress with knowledge would signify an implicit relationship which cannot be separated.

I don't know if you took mathematics but I would suggest you check equations which are implicit.That means the variables are linked.

Just because the majority express a particular view or believe in a particular view does not mean they are correct.The majority of Germans supported Hitler's actions and,the majority of Spaniards support bullfighting,and the minority who did not are suppressed and persecuted in various ways.

Kirk surrendering implied the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few and this implies communism by a different name,something the majority here does not realize.I do not disagree with communism on a small scale as long as it is coupled with capitalism and socialism as too much of any brand of dogma or ideology is tyrannical.

When the individual is subsumed by the majority you could then point to a moment in history and declare that is the point when individuals rights were eradicated and that the state's needs which are meant to serve the individua's took precedence.

The resultant implications of that would be clear only in hindsight to the conformist like yourself but this would not be the case to the non-conformist who would realize this but would be swamped by the incorrect majority,thus allowing tyrannical states to be entrenched.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^So you're saying that the Federation is a tyrannical state then?

 

[Timo]

Naah, I think her point is that the Federation is not tyrannical enough. After all, she wants Kirk to keep firing until all threats to the Federation are bleeding Pepto Bismol, then dictate terms to them. Any sensible enemy would then acquiesce to slavery under Federation rule. Or if they weren't intelligent enough, and an interstellar war ensued, this would be all good and well because killing alien scum is the inalienable right of the free individual.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dancing Doctor]

So she's running on a "Kodos/Bele" ticket?

 

[Cyke101]

Uptightgirl said:

Cyke101 said:

Uptightgirl said:
most progress in humanity was made by individuals rather then by block votes.

Funny, much progress in humanity was made by peace rather than violence.

The poll means nothing except tyranny of the majority

By the way, I'm calling you out on some illogical thinking:

Actually reality proves you wrong.Most scientific and technological progress was made at the time of WW1
and WW2 and this progress filtered into general usage.


Tyranny of the majority means even though the majority is wrong,by imposing their will on the correct minority,they participate in the act of tyranny.

Take the U.S.A election system.

A very small minority know that all 533 Congressman are corrupt having been bought out by various big businesses who have "donated" election expenses to sway legislation their way.

The larger majority are also aware of this dimly.

Yet they continue to re-instate these corrupt officials into office.

Thus the minority who don't vote for these corrupt official have to suffer the tyranny of the majority who persist in re-electing corrupt officials to the detriment of all.

I hope you understand this simple example.

[/QUOTE]

First off, I said much, not most, and even then, I should point out the Athenians, who left much of the fighting and defence of Greece to other forces and concentrated and advanced the very notion of democracy.

And, if peace doesn't bring any progress, why oh why are there even diplomats and ambassadors in the world? Non-violent protests? Conventions and treaties? Non-profit organizations? Peace can advance progress as well through cooperation. The progress that MLK and Ghandi achieved came not through war but through organized peaceful protest. Human progress as opposed to technological progress.

I hope you understand that concept without the condescension.

A different point: I would also like to point out that the events in Star Trek VI most likely lead to the Federation/Klingon relations we saw in TNG/DS9. Think about it, if Kirk hadn't surrendered, that's a couple dozen episodes invalidated right then and there. Heck, if Kirk hadn't surrendered, what are the odds that the Alpha Quadrant could have survived the Dominion War?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^It wouldn't have. Which is why the Dominion tried to break up the Federation-Klingon Alliance (having the changelings pose as Martok and Krajensky and so on).

If the Federation and the Klingon Empire hadn't taken that first step at Khitomer, the Alpha Quadrant would haver most likely fallen under Dominion control much faster and with greater ease.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Uptightgirl said:
Human progress is closely related to scientific progress and your attempt to disentangle it and say it is a discreet quantity unrelated to technological,engineering or medical advance,or knowledge in general would indicate a lack of historical perspective as well as a failure of understanding the reality of human progress which is a very complex,intertwined concept with a multiplicity of variables,interacting to produce a resultant vector.

No, seriously - what is your native language?

 

[A beaker full of death]

Uptightgirl said:

The resultant implications of that would be clear only in hindsight to the conformist like yourself but this would not be the case to the non-conformist who would realize this but would be swamped by the incorrect majority,thus allowing tyrannical states to be entrenched.

Or maybe we're right and you're wrong. Occam's razor, babe.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Uptightgirl said:
Human progress is closely related to scientific progress and your attempt to disentangle it and say it is a discreet quantity unrelated to technological,engineering or medical advance,or knowledge in general would indicate a lack of historical perspective as well as a failure of understanding the reality of human progress which is a very complex,intertwined concept with a multiplicity of variables,interacting to produce a resultant vector.

But I thought just a moment ago, you were saying that most progress is due to war, not a "very complex intertwined concept with a multiplicity of variables interacting to produce a resultant vector." Save the pseudo-intellectual jibber-jabber for your dissertation.

Kirk surrendering implied the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few and this implies communism by a different name,something the majority here does not realize.I do not disagree with communism on a small scale as long as it is coupled with capitalism and socialism as too much of any brand of dogma or ideology is tyrannical.

When the individual is subsumed by the majority you could then point to a moment in history and declare that is the point when individuals rights were eradicated and that the state's needs which are meant to serve the individua's took precedence.

The resultant implications of that would be clear only in hindsight to the conformist like yourself but this would not be the case to the non-conformist who would realize this but would be swamped by the incorrect majority,thus allowing tyrannical states to be entrenched.

Do us all a favor... you and Ayn Rand go get a room.

Just because the majority express a particular view or believe in a particular view does not mean they are correct.The majority of Germans supported Hitler's actions and,the majority of Spaniards support bullfighting,and the minority who did not are suppressed and persecuted in various ways.

Oh, happy day! I finally get to use this:

 

[Cyke101]

Vixen said:
^It wouldn't have. Which is why the Dominion tried to break up the Federation-Klingon Alliance (having the changelings pose as Martok and Krajensky and so on).

If the Federation and the Klingon Empire hadn't taken that first step at Khitomer, the Alpha Quadrant would haver most likely fallen under Dominion control much faster and with greater ease.

Oh, wonderful. Have the Alpha Quadrant fall 90 years later so that we can have a fun but minor 10 second explosion. Screw history, score one for instant gratification!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Cyke101 said:

Vixen said:
^It wouldn't have. Which is why the Dominion tried to break up the Federation-Klingon Alliance (having the changelings pose as Martok and Krajensky and so on).

If the Federation and the Klingon Empire hadn't taken that first step at Khitomer, the Alpha Quadrant would haver most likely fallen under Dominion control much faster and with greater ease.

Oh, wonderful. Have the Alpha Quadrant fall 90 years later so that we can have a fun but minor 10 second explosion. Screw history, score one for instant gratification!

It would have been teh awesome!

 

[ClayinCA]

I have just read this entire thread, and I need to go lie down now...

 

[Plum]

still think she's a bot. That stuff is remarkable!

 

[Uptightgirl]

Plum said:
still think she's a bot. That stuff is remarkable!

I see that since you have,shown an inability to discuss the points,you have to insult me by calling me a bot.

By an attempted effort to belittle me,a schism develops in the main body of your own less then pristine argument showing,that the initial effort of classification,namely me,into a minority,did not succeed.

My primary method of talking to you is English,something you consistently ask in an attempt to belittle me,but being aware of this cross purpose this negates my feelings towards such belittlement,making the attempt seem to be futile in a less than perfunctory manner.My age which is immaterial,yet you persist in asking it again and again smacks of an ism,the one ism you know which is related to the passing of time but which can be extended to other isms by extension,surely something like that in any discussion,would be categorized as less than friendly,but more than deplorable.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Okay. One, that didn't make any sense.

Two, do we have to keep doing this? There is not going to be any conclusion to this "debate" because no one really wants to budge. And this thread has died 4 or 5 times, but we keep posting in it to harass each other. Hows about we all leave each other and the topic be?

 

[A beaker full of death]

Uptightgirl said:
My primary method of talking to you is English,something you consistently ask in an attempt to belittle me,but being aware of this cross purpose this negates my feelings towards such belittlement,making the attempt seem to be futile in a less than perfunctory manner.My age which is immaterial,yet you persist in asking it again and again smacks of an ism,the one ism you know which is related to the passing of time but which can be extended to other isms by extension,surely something like that in any discussion,would be categorized as less than friendly,but more than deplorable.

ok, I just figured out who she reminds me of. Anyone ever see "Pastor" Melissa Scott, a/k/a porn star Barbie Bridges? She misuses words she barely understands too.