"We don't Surrender" Star Trek 6

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Brutal Strudel said:
Ah yes, the Searcher episodes. ENT's "Terra Nova" coincidentally echoed the premise of those episodes (but was much better done, of course--the premise of BR's second season wasn't bad but the execution... ).

IIRC, the ship herself was a re-used starliner from the first season. It's as if DS9's Defiant was a re-use of the freighter from TSFS.

I actually watched some of those episodes - that's how starved for TV entertainment a skiffy addict like myself was in those days (a TV universe of three network channels that sucked 95 percent of the time). I can't remember whether it was the blue Yoda-leprechaun or Mark Lenard removing his own head that finally drove me back to reading books.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

With all due respect, uptightgirl, I think you need to study the history of the time the movie was made. How would the fall of the Soviet Union have been different had Gorbechav been assassinated on the eve of the change to democracy?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

And what if Reagan had been the CO of the Enterprise?

 

[trevanian]

Vixen said:

Uptightgirl said:
I think you are confused about this.Let me explain it you.

Funniest post of the whole thread, in my opinion.

Uptightgirl, you're not exactly "up" on the whole diplomacy aspect of the movie, are you? (Sadly, the diplomacy aspect colors much of the actions of the Enterprise crew, as well as how events unfold.)

In your posts, you continue to reiterate Kirk's innocence and what he "should have done". Frankly, if your version of Kirk or The Undiscovered Country had been the actual one, I would have refused to see it or buy it, based on the lack of realistic actions and your pie-in-the-sky assertions. Every one of the actions you proposed would have just:

Reinforced the Klingons' opinions about Kirk and the Federation
Made diplomatic relations worse, thereby playing directly into the hands of the conspirators
Probably gotten the Enterprise destroyed (Despite your "D7's never beat teh Feds!") and her crew killed
Made the movie on the whole suck

It is, again, your lack of understanding about why Kirk surrendered and showed restraint even when he knew he was innocent. Because peace with the Klingons and a stable Alpha Quadrant (and Beta Quadrant) was more important than being right.

I suggest you rewatch TUC with all of this in mind. It may not change your opinions, but you should be better informed.

Better still, get the poster to rewatch ERRAND OF MERCY. That shows a Kirk who was a little less mature, but even he 'got it' when the Organians starting chiding them about WANTING war.

God that is strange, me implying the TUC Kirk is mature (or even Kirk.) I've spent so long p.o.'d about the Kirk prejuice/Spock pride/mindrape character assassination aspect of TUC, you'd think I would never defend it.

 

[trevanian]

Vixen said:
And what if Reagan had been the CO of the Enterprise?

Go find David Gerrold' story THE KENNEDY ENTERPRISE and see what JFK might have done in the captain's chair.

Reagan would have needed a ship's counselor (read astrologist) just to know which way he should cross his knees that morning.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

trevanian said:

Vixen said:

Uptightgirl said:
I think you are confused about this.Let me explain it you.

Funniest post of the whole thread, in my opinion.

Uptightgirl, you're not exactly "up" on the whole diplomacy aspect of the movie, are you? (Sadly, the diplomacy aspect colors much of the actions of the Enterprise crew, as well as how events unfold.)

In your posts, you continue to reiterate Kirk's innocence and what he "should have done". Frankly, if your version of Kirk or The Undiscovered Country had been the actual one, I would have refused to see it or buy it, based on the lack of realistic actions and your pie-in-the-sky assertions. Every one of the actions you proposed would have just:

Reinforced the Klingons' opinions about Kirk and the Federation
Made diplomatic relations worse, thereby playing directly into the hands of the conspirators
Probably gotten the Enterprise destroyed (Despite your "D7's never beat teh Feds!") and her crew killed
Made the movie on the whole suck

It is, again, your lack of understanding about why Kirk surrendered and showed restraint even when he knew he was innocent. Because peace with the Klingons and a stable Alpha Quadrant (and Beta Quadrant) was more important than being right.

I suggest you rewatch TUC with all of this in mind. It may not change your opinions, but you should be better informed.

Better still, get the poster to rewatch ERRAND OF MERCY. That shows a Kirk who was a little less mature, but even he 'got it' when the Organians starting chiding them about WANTING war.

Excellent point.

God that is strange, me implying the TUC Kirk is mature (or even Kirk.)

Well, yeah...

I've spent so long p.o.'d about the Kirk prejuice/Spock pride/mindrape character assassination aspect of TUC, you'd think I would never defend it.

I actually really enjoyed TUC. It's still one of my favorite Trek movies.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

trevanian said:

Vixen said:
And what if Reagan had been the CO of the Enterprise?

Go find David Gerrold' story THE KENNEDY ENTERPRISE and see what JFK might have done in the captain's chair.

Or who he might have done in the captain's chair.

Reagan would have needed a ship's counselor (read astrologist) just to know which way he should cross his knees that morning.

But he would have known how to charm those Gorn!

 

[A beaker full of death]

trevanian said:
Reagan would have needed a ship's counselor (read astrologist) just to know which way he should cross his knees that morning.

Yaaaaaaaaaaawn.

 

[blueziggy]

im willing to bet the OP has never watched a single episode or movie other then TUC.

to the OP,
kirk surrendering is the biggest example of character developement in the movies and yet at the same time is kirk being kirk. kirk surrendering for the greater good shows the depth of the character, and also brings up another character trait.

i quote mccoy in ST3, kirk did what he had to do; what he always does, "turn death into a fighting chance to live". the moment those torpedoes hit the klingon ship peace was dead. kirk surrendering gave peace another chance to live.

no one wanted war except the warhawks (the conspirers) and the romulans.

this single shocking (by urhuras reaction) decision by kirk showed how much a person could change. the actions of the others showed how hatered can lead good men to do unspeakable things.

also, remember the words of kahless... destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat.

 

[trevanian]

blueziggy said:
this single shocking (by urhuras reaction) decision by kirk showed how much a person could change.

Or, to play devil's advocate, it could just be a safe rehash of what we've already seen in TWOK, which is Kirk surrendering and Uhura gaping at him and him snapping do it while we still have time.

Most of the TWOK rehashing happens in SFS, but you gotta admit this is pretty close.

 

[blueziggy]

agree its a rehash a bit, lines are different. however, the situation is completely different. in ST2 uhrua questions him but she knows he has to because the enterprise has no chance. in ST6 the enterprise is in TIP TOP shape and is facing a foe that has already been dealt significant damage.

which is more shocking - the underdog surrendering, or the favorite.... ????

 

[Uptightgirl]

Snowman in Elaan of Troyius the Enterprise after suffering numerous hits by the Klingon d7 used the dilithium crystals from the necklace to restore power and then fired only 2 or 3 shots at the d7 which was "damaged" according to spock and then ran away which implies that another 2 or 3 shots and it would have been destroyed.

Do you agree?

Do you recall that episode?

Also going back to TUC,Kirk could have raised shields taken a few hits and fired back with the perfectly legitimate reason that it was self defense and totally destroyed the Kronos 1.It was just one ship after all and the Klingons were in no position to go to war anyway as Spock said they had only 50 years of life left.

Investigation would have revealed that it was a Klingon bird of prey or Kirk could even have claimed it was a cloaked Romulan bird of prey had fired to stop a Federation/Klingon Alliance and shifted attention away from Starfleet and it was not the Enterprise which had fired those initial torpedos and in the film the Romulans Ambassador Nerchnov had said "there will never be a better time" to strike at the Klingons who were weak economically and in their military power.

As the Kronos would be destroyed no one could contradict Kirk and his logs and no way the Klingons would make war about it as they were weak from the explosian and Starfleet would have been saved from the burden of looking after billions of uncontrollable Klingons which would have further weakened Starfleet and also allowed internal factionalism by the Klingon refugees to disrupt peace within the Federation and in fact would actually be an achilles heel for the Federation allowing the Romulans to take advantage of this.

Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.

 

[cardinal biggles]

You're missing the whole point that this was supposed to be a diplomatic mission. Kirk understood what was going on -- as he and McCoy prepare to beam over, he says to Spock (paraphrased) "We won't be the instigators of full-scale war on the eve of universal peace." That's why he surrendered. Taking any defensive posture at all would have started a war.

 

[InklingStar]

I uh, don't think all the logic in the world is going to change anyone's opinions here. Round and round we go again...

 

[archeryguy1701]

Uptightgirl said:
Snowman in Elaan of Troyius the Enterprise after suffering numerous hits by the Klingon d7 used the dilithium crystals from the necklace to restore power and then fired only 2 or 3 shots at the d7 which was "damaged" according to spock and then ran away which implies that another 2 or 3 shots and it would have been destroyed.

Do you agree?

Do you recall that episode?

I will admit, I haven’t seen that episode. However, based on your description, unless the reader’s digest version left a few things out, there’s a few flaws in your theory. First, the Enterprise had to restore power, which implies to me that the Klingon’s were beating the Enterprise pretty good. The other thing is that you were assuming that they were going to be destroyed. Just because they were fleeing doesn’t mean they were in bad shape, necessarily. Going back to TUC, I will make my primary response as succinct as possible: What?!?

Also going back to TUC,Kirk could have raised shields taken a few hits and fired back with the perfectly legitimate reason that it was self defense and totally destroyed the Kronos 1.

First, as far as Kirk knew, the Klingons were responding in self defense! Remember the part where their records show they fired first? Again? Second, should they really destroy the Klingon ship in self defense? If they are so over matched as you say they are, the Enterprise should be able to disable them.

It was just one ship after all and the Klingons were in no position to go to war anyway as Spock said they had only 50 years of life left.

Yes, just one ship. Let us not mention that it was the one ship that carried the Klingon leader, the next in line, and who knows how many more people in line for the leadership. I would fancy that the Klingon’s would be mighty pissed about that, agreed? Just because they may not have been able to afford a full scale war, I’m sure that the Klingons would have thrown everything they had into an end-all battle. Remember the scene where the Klingon generals are attempting to talk Azetbur into a sneak attack? Remember the scene just a few minutes earlier where Azetbur warns that if the Starfleet attempts anything, it would be an act of war. Just because they can’t afford a long war doesn’t mean they won’t go for it when pushed.

Investigation would have revealed that it was a Klingon bird of prey or Kirk could even have claimed it was a cloaked Romulan bird of prey had fired to stop a Federation/Klingon Alliance and shifted attention away from Starfleet and it was not the Enterprise which had fired those initial torpedos and in the film the Romulans Ambassador Nerchnov had said "there will never be a better time" to strike at the Klingons who were weak economically and in their military power.

No, investigations would show that the Kronos 1 was destroyed and that Enterprise expended X-number of torpedos doing it, if they followed your plan. If things cooled off in the movie and an investigation took place, the records would show Enterprise fired first, but they still had a full load. Which could be explained away, if someone tried. For example, they could have claimed the Enterprise had a pair of un-documented torpedos in their possession. Yes, make Kirk the big liar and point the fingers at the Romulans. That’s what they need: pissing off and empire that was financially stable. I will now turn to the fact that EVERY SINGLE one of you theories on how it should have gone involves them knowing that there was a cloaked BOP around! Again, how in the bleeding hell do they know that?!? They didn’t even know it was possible until Valeris confirmed that they had it!

As the Kronos would be destroyed no one could contradict Kirk and his logs and no way the Klingons would make war about it as they were weak from the explosian and Starfleet would have been saved from the burden of looking after billions of uncontrollable Klingons which would have further weakened Starfleet and also allowed internal factionalism by the Klingon refugees to disrupt peace within the Federation and in fact would actually be an achilles heel for the Federation allowing the Romulans to take advantage of this.

Okay, that was just one big, nasty run on sentence/ paragraph so I’ll try to answer everything at once. There’s nothing there do contradict Kirk’s logs except the logs themselves and a blown up Klingon war ship!! He should be able to get off scott-free. Please see above where I point out that they were willing to go to war. The last half of your paragraph sentence starting at “Starfleet would have been saved” makes absolutely no sense! So, by crippling the Klingon government (don’t deny it, that’s exactly what you’re proposing!) would save the Federation from having to clean up its own mess. Why would the Romulan’s taking advantage of anything be of concern to them? You’re all ready proposing they blame the whole thing on the Romulans, so they’re likely gearing up for war any how!

Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.

Yes, because it was the Romulan Starship Enterprise that crippled the Klingon government. I had forgotten that part of your plan.

 

[cardinal biggles]

^I think Uptightgirl has crossed over from the Mirror Universe, where there's a hit TV show called Star Trek that was created by Henry Kissinger.

 

[A beaker full of death]

santa biggles said:
^I think Uptightgirl has crossed over from the Mirror Universe, where there's a hit TV show called Star Trek that was created by Henry Kissinger.

Not likely. Kissinger understands the realities of diplomacy. Uptightgirl's problem seems to be a lack of practical experience at pretty much any human interaction. I wish someone would expose her to Red October; I want to watch her head explode.

Kissinger also speaks English like a native.

 

[Nebusj]

TwinklingStar said:
I uh, don't think all the logic in the world is going to change anyone's opinions here. Round and round we go again...

I think Kirk should have surrendered to Ambassador Nanclus and Khan's chest.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

santa biggles said:
^I think Uptightgirl has crossed over from the Mirror Universe, where there's a hit TV show called Star Trek that was created by Henry Kissinger.

No, the MU version was created by John Bolton.

 

[cardinal biggles]

And Dick Cheney.