Perhaps we should have a poll.
"We don't Surrender" Star Trek 6
- Thread starter Uptightgirl
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Perhaps we should have a poll.
Just remember that winning an argument on the internet is just like winning a race at the Special Olympics. :thumbsup:It seems after that last post by ds9sega I have won the argument fair and square.
Thanks ds9sega for handing me victory from the jaws of defeat on a plate.
Yippppeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Then what does that make losing an argument on the Internet and claiming you won?
Desperate.
Oh. My. Fucking. God.
I don't even know how to respond to Uptightgirl's latest post.
My head...is BOGGlingwiththe...sheer...INCREDULOusnessofit.
BTW, the poll so far is supporting essentially everyone else in this thread. I would hope that is significant.
I don't even know how to respond to Uptightgirl's latest post.
My head...is BOGGlingwiththe...sheer...INCREDULOusnessofit.
BTW, the poll so far is supporting essentially everyone else in this thread. I would hope that is significant.
Actually, I'd think the reasonable conspirator would plan it like this:
1) BoP fires two mostly harmless torpedoes (carefully made to imitate Starfleet ordnance) that shake the Chancellor's ship a bit but do not threaten the life of Chang who is also aboard.
2) Chang flips the switch that shuts down gravity. And most of the intruder alerts and defenses as well. He also kills the ship's surgeon, either personally or with the help of a co-conspirator. Some key personnel aboard the ship are in on this anyway, but for example the Captain need not know. Chang might kill him or her as well. Or then Chang is the Captain for this voyage.
3) Assassins beam abroad, march to Gorkon and kill him. Co-conspirators help clear the path for them, and make sure that everything is recorded as suits the plan.
4) Chang waits for the ship's crew to clear the mess, then hails Kirk, hoping to challenge him to a battle. Chang's own ship is far less wounded than she appears, and Chang probably counts on the BoP to help finish off Kirk as well. There may also be conspirators aboard the Enterprise to sabotage her defenses at the crucial moment (although obviously Valeris hasn't been told about these aspects of the plot!).
When Kirk doesn't take the bait according to Plan A, Chang goes for Plan B where Kirk and McCoy are arrested and put on trial.
Timo Saloniemi
Uptightgirl
Lieutenant
I quote Snowman:-
"It is entirely within the realm of possibility that Kirk (let's say he did it for a moment) would cripple the ship, kill his main target (Gorkon) and get out. Why would you going with the world war theme, why would you nuke a whole town just to kill one guy?".
Look Kirk had never seen or met Gorkon and why would he want to go to all that trouble to kill 1 Klingon when he could just as easily blow up the lot from the comfort of his chair?
I mean Gorkon is the best Klingon I have ever seen.
He exudes intelligence and nobility,has majesty,presence and gravitas.
I dare say,to coin a new phrase that I consider Gorkon to be the epic Klingon.
It is a great pity he was killed off early,instead of that treacherous Chang,who lasted until the end of the film.I would have liked to see more of Gorkon in the film.
And no way would Kirk kill somebody he had never met or seen without provocation and the vast majority of Klingons knew that.
Also how can you tell it was Federation officers just because they wore Federation garb,which is easy to buy or counterfeit.
The helmets obscured everything.It could be mickey mouse for all you know beneath the helmet.
The poll means nothing except tyranny of the majority and most progress in humanity was made by individuals rather then by block votes.
In defeat I can afford to be magnanimous.
In any case I have decided to make you the winner of this poll.
In any case I have decided to let you win as a present for the New Year and I declare that you are the winner and that you have soundly defeated me and that you have won the debate fair and square with the rest of the gang of course and I award you the internet cyber prize.
Happy New Year.
To You All.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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"It is entirely within the realm of possibility that Kirk (let's say he did it for a moment) would cripple the ship, kill his main target (Gorkon) and get out. Why would you going with the world war theme, why would you nuke a whole town just to kill one guy?".
Look Kirk had never seen or met Gorkon and why would he want to go to all that trouble to kill 1 Klingon when he could just as easily blow up the lot from the comfort of his chair?
I mean Gorkon is the best Klingon I have ever seen.
He exudes intelligence and nobility,has majesty,presence and gravitas.
I dare say,to coin a new phrase that I consider Gorkon to be the epic Klingon.
It is a great pity he was killed off early,instead of that treacherous Chang,who lasted until the end of the film.I would have liked to see more of Gorkon in the film.
And no way would Kirk kill somebody he had never met or seen without provocation and the vast majority of Klingons knew that.
Also how can you tell it was Federation officers just because they wore Federation garb,which is easy to buy or counterfeit.
The helmets obscured everything.It could be mickey mouse for all you know beneath the helmet.
The poll means nothing except tyranny of the majority and most progress in humanity was made by individuals rather then by block votes.
In defeat I can afford to be magnanimous.
In any case I have decided to make you the winner of this poll.
In any case I have decided to let you win as a present for the New Year and I declare that you are the winner and that you have soundly defeated me and that you have won the debate fair and square with the rest of the gang of course and I award you the internet cyber prize.
Happy New Year.
To You All.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Uptightightgirl to her last dying days...mutter..mutter.. Kirk:- "We DON'T Surrender!....Raise shields,return fire and blow them out of the stars!"
I just gotta ask:
How old are you?
How old are you?
Um, where would the Klingons acquire Federation environment suits? I don't think it's something too easily procured. And, since there's a Federation starship within transporter range...maybe, just maybe...
Oh, and Chang was also killed off. You don't usually survive the destruction of your starship if you're still on the bridge and make no move as a torpedo comes right at you and completely destroys it.
I can't believe that there are still people out there who think that TUC was a space cowboys movie.
*headdesk*
And I second A beaker full of death's question. I'm really very curious. And if you don't mind (and I understand if you do), what country are you from, Uptightgirl? And if it's the US, what general area?
*headdesk*
And I second A beaker full of death's question. I'm really very curious. And if you don't mind (and I understand if you do), what country are you from, Uptightgirl? And if it's the US, what general area?
Plum said:
How to respond...
That's a great sentence. Vital, violent and imaginative, a James Bond dystopia wrapped in Nietchien indignation! Nice work!
Nietzschean :thumbsup:
To be fair, the plot could have played out that way, too. Chang could simply have beamed out onto the hidden BoP after making sure that Kronos 1 was sufficiently sabotaged to ensure Gorkon's death under "Kirk's" barrage of torpedoes.
But don't you all think it better for the conspirators if, at the end of the day, there existed a Klingon record of the events? Chang would need to leave Klingon survivors who can testify that Kirk was the villain. If he merely destroyed Gorkon's ship outright (and perhaps faked his own death), he would give Kirk the full freedom to falsify all records and prove to the universe that Gorkon's ship exploded because her baffle plate was cracked, or because Romulans or an Incredible Space Amoeba attacked. And if Chang destroyed both ships, Gorkon's and Kirk's, it would be all the more difficult to pretend that Kirk did it and died in the attempt - the explanation of an outside attack would be the more tempting in every respect.
If Kirk falsified the records to his advantage, or if a Starfleet or neutral inquiry decided that an outside attack had destroyed both ships, there would be some murmurs of doubt. But most folks (even back in the Klingon Empire) would rather believe that yet another crappy Klingon ship exploded on its own than that a Federation Captain blew it up. Everybody outside the Empire would want to believe in Kirk's innocence, after all; the Klingon propaganda to the contrary would ring hollow.
At the very best, it would be more of the same-o:
But with live, wounded and outraged Klingon witnesses and Klingon visual records to present, the propaganda victory would most probably go to the Klingons as intended.
Timo Saloniemi
Personally I think it went like this
BOP fires two torpedos which does damage but nothing critical
at the same time the conspiritors under Chang cut the gravity system off
This allows two Starfleet crewmen to beam aboard and make it from the transporter to Gorkons chambers killing crew as they go with as little resistance as possible.
Chang was absent from what looked like a meeting with Gorkons senior staff, wasnt he in charge of the military? I would guess he made sure that the ships surgeon was in this room during the attack so he would be killed.
There was one survivor we know of who testified, why would the Starfleet personel leave him and just shoot off his arm right outside Gorkons door? because the conspiracy needed proof that it wasnt just a Klingon with a captured Phaser who killed Gorkon, someone had to of seen it happen
Kirk did the right thing although I dont know if he should really have beamed over to a ship which believed he just attacked them. If he had acted defensivly he would have fired back and would have gone 3 ways
1. Enterprise Wins and reports back, the Klingons believe it was a Starfleet plot and respond with open war
2. Enterprise looses and the Klingons start a war, Starfleet tries to insist that it must have been Kirk and Enterprise working alone, afterall Kirk had a grudge against them (which appeared to have been cleared up, or partly, in STV but was ignored)...so war
3. Enterprise wins but the BoP finishes her off to avoid the possibility of any evidence...war ensues as both parties think the other set them up
This means he did the right thing, it saved the Enterprise and in the end it saved the galaxy from a war
Klingons dont take prisoners, that might be true in battle as they must feel they are giving their enemy some sort of honour in death, this was not a battle however and after they were tried it was expected they would be sentenced to death.
The fact that someone altered the ships computer to record firing 2 torpedos means that they could have done more...this was done to make the Enterprise crew think that they could have fired however missed the opportunity to alter the ships munitions manifest to say they had 2 torpedos fewer than they should. This would mean that to check (like they did) they would have had to check that the records where correct and they had the right number of torpedos. Then again couldnt Enterprise have been carrying more than she should have as a part of the plot and either way they could have been fired from the torpedo bay or secondary control leaving the bridge crew clueless to what was happening.
BOP fires two torpedos which does damage but nothing critical
at the same time the conspiritors under Chang cut the gravity system off
This allows two Starfleet crewmen to beam aboard and make it from the transporter to Gorkons chambers killing crew as they go with as little resistance as possible.
Chang was absent from what looked like a meeting with Gorkons senior staff, wasnt he in charge of the military? I would guess he made sure that the ships surgeon was in this room during the attack so he would be killed.
There was one survivor we know of who testified, why would the Starfleet personel leave him and just shoot off his arm right outside Gorkons door? because the conspiracy needed proof that it wasnt just a Klingon with a captured Phaser who killed Gorkon, someone had to of seen it happen
Kirk did the right thing although I dont know if he should really have beamed over to a ship which believed he just attacked them. If he had acted defensivly he would have fired back and would have gone 3 ways
1. Enterprise Wins and reports back, the Klingons believe it was a Starfleet plot and respond with open war
2. Enterprise looses and the Klingons start a war, Starfleet tries to insist that it must have been Kirk and Enterprise working alone, afterall Kirk had a grudge against them (which appeared to have been cleared up, or partly, in STV but was ignored)...so war
3. Enterprise wins but the BoP finishes her off to avoid the possibility of any evidence...war ensues as both parties think the other set them up
This means he did the right thing, it saved the Enterprise and in the end it saved the galaxy from a war
Klingons dont take prisoners, that might be true in battle as they must feel they are giving their enemy some sort of honour in death, this was not a battle however and after they were tried it was expected they would be sentenced to death.
The fact that someone altered the ships computer to record firing 2 torpedos means that they could have done more...this was done to make the Enterprise crew think that they could have fired however missed the opportunity to alter the ships munitions manifest to say they had 2 torpedos fewer than they should. This would mean that to check (like they did) they would have had to check that the records where correct and they had the right number of torpedos. Then again couldnt Enterprise have been carrying more than she should have as a part of the plot and either way they could have been fired from the torpedo bay or secondary control leaving the bridge crew clueless to what was happening.
I'd say a definite Kobayashi Maru scenario there...
Funny, much progress in humanity was made by peace rather than violence.
Heck, Kirk probably had a huge hand in it by surrendering the Enterprise.
By the way, I'm calling you out on some illogical thinking: everyone in here and in the poll is talking about the more peaceful, and ultimately correctly-proven, route of peace that Kirk took and saved the galaxy. You're calling it... tyranny? Say what?
I was referring to starburst's assessment of the situation with an attack...
Exactly right, both end results from acting defensivly would likely end in a no win situation (unless some other factor happened which I doubt)
The only course of action which had a chance was the one which was taken, it calmed a hostile situation down enough so the Enterprise was not fired on and peace was again possible.
Thankfully Gorkons daughter was not killed as all the other Klingons seemed like Chang and wanted war (some of them were in on it with Chang) where as she wanted her fathers peace. At the time though I did wonder if she had been behind it.
The only course of action which had a chance was the one which was taken, it calmed a hostile situation down enough so the Enterprise was not fired on and peace was again possible.
Thankfully Gorkons daughter was not killed as all the other Klingons seemed like Chang and wanted war (some of them were in on it with Chang) where as she wanted her fathers peace. At the time though I did wonder if she had been behind it.
Uptightgirl
Lieutenant
Actually reality proves you wrong.Most scientific and technological progress was made at the time of WW1
and WW2 and this progress filtered into general usage.
Tyranny of the majority means even though the majority is wrong,by imposing their will on the correct minority,they participate in the act of tyranny.
Take the U.S.A election system.
A very small minority know that all 533 Congressman are corrupt having been bought out by various big businesses who have "donated" election expenses to sway legislation their way.
The larger majority are also aware of this dimly.
Yet they continue to re-instate these corrupt officials into office.
Thus the minority who don't vote for these corrupt official have to suffer the tyranny of the majority who persist in re-electing corrupt officials to the detriment of all.
I hope you understand this simple example.
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