"We don't Surrender" Star Trek 6
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I'm not necessarily so sure. The assassins were wearing EV suits-protection against being identified (beyond that as belonging to the Federation)-and also against hazardous environments. I think that the torpedoes were aimed at wherever life support systems would/could have been, YMMV. Although it would make sense if the gravity generators were attacked, considering that it was a Klingon ship firing on another Klingon ship. Let me check the dialogue. *rummages through Internet*
Okay:
It's still hard to tell from the script, because the "Gravity generator!" line can be taken as "It's failed!" or "It's been targeted, hit, and failed!" I'd also like to point out that the perception, even aboard the Enterprise, is that they fired on the Chancellor's ship.
All I know is, I wouldn't want to do it.
Plus, Modern Trek is and can be just as gritty as Original Trek. The entire Dominion War storyline, for example.
It always warms my heart when you respond like this. Thanks. :thumbsup:
Indeed. Because he's James T. Kirk.
Of all the faults TUC has (and they are legion), this plot point isn't one of them. This is Star Trek not Galaxy Quest.
Which is kind of a pity - it'd be nice if there were a "Galaxy Quest II," much less a "VI."
Agreed--sort of. I really liked GQ but it was with the understanding that the tv show within the movie was a far sillier construct that the admittedly silly show it was lampooning (I mean, what kind of dumb-ass SF show would put a kid at the helm? Really...) right down to the catch-phrase.
"Galaxy Quest" (the faux TV show) is silly but believable given the time-period in which it was allegedly produced - late 70s or early 80s, I believe. I think that in tone it's a collision between Trek and "Buck Rogers In The 25th Century."
I love "Taggart's" hairstyle in the fake TV segments.
You hit the nail on the head. Sadly, I fear it was a pretty good approximation of the bullet we dodged when Star Trek-Phase II fell through--the treatment by the Jonathan Livingston Seagull guy was just astounding. From Robert Bloch to Richard Bach, lawdy, lawdy, lawdy...
Fleeing wouldn't have made them look anymore innocent.
The logs showed that they did fire the torpedos. They didn't realize that the neutrino surge was important until they really started stretching for what happened. Again, the video logs wouldn't have done any good. The question wasn't if Kirk ordered the attack, but did Enterprise fire? Remember in the court scene where they charged Kirk because he admitted that he was responsible for his crew's actions? That's all the Klingon's needed to nail them, especially since Enterprise wasn't sure if they had fired. The torpedos could have been shot off from several other places on the ship; the bridge didn't need to know about it.
The Klingon's could not afford all-out war, as was established at the very begining of the movie. Getting Kirk and McCoy aas prisoners could have been enough to slightly smooth things over. How many times in TV and real life have deals been made that averted all-out war, but still lead to diplomatic relations ending? That's likely what the Klingon conspirators wanted.
[qoute]Was it Chekov who said if "if they fire with shields down we could not respond"...
[/QUOTE]
Yes, something like that.
That was a more than slightly biased Kirk taunting Saavik for failing the Kobiashi-maru test. Just because Kirk says it, doesn't mean it's scripture.
See above. The Klingon's couldn't afford war, they just wanted diplomatic relations to end, possibly forever.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Kirk never actually won or got into a full-on, battle to the death fight with a D-7. I'm guessing you're making this assumption because Kirk was a BAMF in his younger days.
This low-value servant you speak of was their governmental leader. Emperor didn't exist for centuries or millenia prior, and didn't come back as a cerimonial position until another 100-200 years later.
You've got the right idea now! Shoot them, disable them, run away, and taunt the bastards! Go Kirk!
Unsheilded, and barely moving. Any tactical officer who can't disable something under those conditions with two free shots should be reassigned to kitchen duty.
The more I think about it, the more closely I think it parallels the second season of the "Buck Rogers" series - one of the new producers attempted to turn the show into a "new 'Star Trek'" and the hybrid resembled GQ both visually and in its unintentional silliness.
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This is getting old. Do you have any conception of the diplomatic framework of the film?
I suggest you watch Star Wars if you just want to see space cowboys.
And there goes my brain.
Holy shit. You really do base your thinking on role-playing games, don't you.
Uptightgirl
Lieutenant
Re: "We don't Surrender" Star Trek 6 *DELETED*
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I blame modern Trek. It made youngsters stupid.
I never thought I'd find myself saying that STVI was too realistic for modern viewers.
I never thought I'd find myself saying that STVI was too realistic for modern viewers.
Uptightgirl
Lieutenant
I quote:-
"The Klingon's couldn't afford war, they just wanted diplomatic relations to end, possibly forever."
That makes no sense.Why bother sending a mission.Just stay at home.
Snowman if as you say the Klingons did not want war why did they sabotage the peace talks.
First you say the wanted war now you say they don't.
The Enterprise could have as soon as they saw the torps being fired could have hailed the klingons warning them after the first shot and how come the sensors never detected it coming from the Enterprise.
I think you are confused about this.Let me explain it you.
The Enterprise did not fire the torps.
It was a cloaked Bird of Brey and Spock should immediately have deduced this.He seemed to be befuddled for a Vulcan.
Kirk did not like Klingons,why would he want to avert war?
The d7 Katinga in every episode is always defeated in tos,tng,vger,ds9...
The enterprise should not have surrendered at all.All they have to do is assert they never fired and raise shields.
Even if they get hit by a few photons from the kronos,so what?..the shields absorb the shock anyway..in fact kirk could shout at the klingons demanding to know why they are firing at the Enterprise.... that the kronos fired on the Enterprise and he has a dozen witnesses to prove they did not fire...
...they(The Enterprise) don't need to fire back anyway with shields up and the klingons will realize that something is not right as Enterprise does not fire back...and it beams the sensor and video logs to the kronos while kirk protests his innocence on the screen and tell them to flood space with antiprotons or tetrion's particles to detect the cloaked bird of prey...
He could even have flooded space himself with antiprotons or tetrion particles making the bird of prey visiable for all to see.
Also the cloacked bird of prey partially decloaked momentarily,while firing from the nob end which should have been detected immediately on sensors coupled with the neutrino flux.
"The Klingon's couldn't afford war, they just wanted diplomatic relations to end, possibly forever."
That makes no sense.Why bother sending a mission.Just stay at home.
Snowman if as you say the Klingons did not want war why did they sabotage the peace talks.
First you say the wanted war now you say they don't.
The Enterprise could have as soon as they saw the torps being fired could have hailed the klingons warning them after the first shot and how come the sensors never detected it coming from the Enterprise.
I think you are confused about this.Let me explain it you.
The Enterprise did not fire the torps.
It was a cloaked Bird of Brey and Spock should immediately have deduced this.He seemed to be befuddled for a Vulcan.
Kirk did not like Klingons,why would he want to avert war?
The d7 Katinga in every episode is always defeated in tos,tng,vger,ds9...
The enterprise should not have surrendered at all.All they have to do is assert they never fired and raise shields.
Even if they get hit by a few photons from the kronos,so what?..the shields absorb the shock anyway..in fact kirk could shout at the klingons demanding to know why they are firing at the Enterprise.... that the kronos fired on the Enterprise and he has a dozen witnesses to prove they did not fire...
...they(The Enterprise) don't need to fire back anyway with shields up and the klingons will realize that something is not right as Enterprise does not fire back...and it beams the sensor and video logs to the kronos while kirk protests his innocence on the screen and tell them to flood space with antiprotons or tetrion's particles to detect the cloaked bird of prey...
He could even have flooded space himself with antiprotons or tetrion particles making the bird of prey visiable for all to see.
Also the cloacked bird of prey partially decloaked momentarily,while firing from the nob end which should have been detected immediately on sensors coupled with the neutrino flux.
Please tell me English is not your native language.
Okay, the Klingon conspirators, not the Klingon government. I assumed that was easily enough inferred, and I apologize.
The Fed’s didn’t want war. The Klingon Empire couldn’t afford an all-out war. It is entirely conceivable that the Klingon’s could say “We want someone to be held accountable for this. If you give us that, we can write the whole thing off. BUT, if you come near our territory or attempt to have anything to do with us, it will be seen as an act of war.” Unfortunately for the conspirators, Azetbur was dedicated to her father’s path and refused to call the peace talks off. There is a big difference between open hostilities and a lack of diplomatic relations/ cold war.
If the conspirators were smart little terrorists, they would have disabled the shields. Why? Because they can’t beam through shields! Why was it never verbally established for us? Because we only saw people in their mess hall and in the corridors. They likely had no way of knowing. The shields going down are far less noticeable than the grav plating. For the Enterprise sensors, they thought they fired. Seriously! See the below clip, starting about 1:50.
they fired. Twice.
As for the Klingon sensors, there are a few plausible explanations:
A)The BOP was close enough to the enterprise that they couldn’t tell the difference.
B)More likely, Chang had the entire bridge crew replaced with people loyal to the conspiracy.
Or even C) Sensor logs can be changed, as indicated by the above clip.
Wow, that’s quite a catch! TUC has been my favorite Trek Movie for 7 or 8 years, and I never picked up on the fact that the Klingons were the shooters. I appreciate you setting me straight on that fact!
So, do tell how Spock should have immediately known there was a cloaked ship firing? Barring divine inspiration by God (“Chang stop!!! Our data banks have been changed and there’s an invisible ship below us firing on you! I don’t know how I know this, but you have to trust me on this one!) or several days of investigation being compressed into mere seconds, he was correctly clueless.
Just because you hate a specific person or race, doesn’t mean you want a full-scale war with that group, does it? And, if it does, please don’t ever become president.
I’m sorry, there’s a chance that I’m either not thinking of it or overlooking it, but I can’t come up with a single TOS episode where the Enterprise single-handedly takes down a D7. Please cite a specific episode. As for the other series, what happens there really doesn’t matter in a TOS movie, especially since they’re set 100 or so years after TUC, right?
See the above clip. They know Kirk hates them. His word doesn’t count for squat.
If you fast forward to the end of the movie, the Enterprise was getting her ass kicked by a few torpedoes with her shields up. And that was by a little BOP, which is weaker than a D7! I doubt the Enterprise would have held up much better there. Also, Chang was the one to call the Enterprise and explain why he was about to open fire. I doubt he would have picked up the phone when Kirk tries to call back demanding him to re-explain his position again. As for the witnesses, they only witnesses that Kirk didn’t order them to fire. The Enterprise still thought they fired.
You’re just rearguing your old points. Please see my remarks from this and previous posts on:
--The value of Kirk’s word
--The shields holding up
--The credibility of the sensor logs
--The credibility of the video logs
--The reliability/ loyalty of the Klingon bridge crew
Please review these, as I’m tired of reposting the same answer over and over again. As for the cloaked BOP, please explain, again, why they should have been aware that there was a cloaked ship beneath them. At that time, they thought it wasn’t even possible. They didn’t even make that guess until all other options were expended, and even then, they knew no one would believe them. And a cloaked ship isn’t the only source of Neutrino emissions, so why should that have been a dead give away? Also see the quote where Spock said the emissions appeared to be coming from themselves.
The BOP didn’t decloak. It momentarily shed visible light on itself, but it wasn’t detectable. If it had decloaked, , it would just be another regular BOP, and the Enterprise could have kicked its ass clear into next week. Again, they would have had to know they were looking for invisible ships, and with the Klingon bridge crew possibly being corrupt, they may have overlooked anything they saw.
Ah yes, the Searcher episodes. ENT's "Terra Nova" coincidentally echoed the premise of those episodes (but was much better done, of course--the premise of BR's second season wasn't bad but the execution...
).IIRC, the ship herself was a re-used starliner from the first season. It's as if DS9's Defiant was a re-use of the freighter from TSFS.
Funniest post of the whole thread, in my opinion.
Uptightgirl, you're not exactly "up" on the whole diplomacy aspect of the movie, are you? (Sadly, the diplomacy aspect colors much of the actions of the Enterprise crew, as well as how events unfold.)
In your posts, you continue to reiterate Kirk's innocence and what he "should have done". Frankly, if your version of Kirk or The Undiscovered Country had been the actual one, I would have refused to see it or buy it, based on the lack of realistic actions and your pie-in-the-sky assertions. Every one of the actions you proposed would have just:
Reinforced the Klingons' opinions about Kirk and the Federation
Made diplomatic relations worse, thereby playing directly into the hands of the conspirators
Probably gotten the Enterprise destroyed (Despite your "D7's never beat teh Feds!") and her crew killed
Made the movie on the whole suck
It is, again, your lack of understanding about why Kirk surrendered and showed restraint even when he knew he was innocent. Because peace with the Klingons and a stable Alpha Quadrant (and Beta Quadrant) was more important than being right.
I suggest you rewatch TUC with all of this in mind. It may not change your opinions, but you should be better informed.
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