WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

[sidious618]

B+ I enjoyed it despite some sillier scenes that stood out. I'd see it again. The opening credits was brilliant.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

The movie, it seemed to me, played much more as a science fiction story, almost entirely lacking the subversion of the superhero concept that made the book such a big deal in the comic book world. This falls entirely to the direction, which made a huge misstep in playing up the action fight scenes, tremendously heroicizing the superheroes visually, and thus completely undercutting the issues that made the book a radical deconstruction of the concept of the superhero.

I saw the book as a deconstruction of the "superhero comic book " and the movie as a deconstruction of the "superhero movie". That (to me) explains the emphasis on action, as well as the nipples on Ozymandias' costume.

I think it should have been a deconstruction of the superhero movie, but it was not that at all. Having big action set pieces with overused slo-mo does nothing to deconstruct the role of action in superhero movies (nor do nipples on a breast plate) - in fact both are exactly what superhero movies do. If anything Snyder's Watchmen was an incredibly traditional superhero movie in style, which is why the style conflicted with the content of the story.

 

[galleywest]

My biggest gripe with the movie though is the very, very end. By having the voiceover of Rorschach reading his journal, the movie assumes what has certainly become a popular interpretation of the ending, but one I think is very wrong. The ending of the book does not at all imply that Rorschach's journal will bring the truth out in such a way as to undermine Adrian's New World Order. Quite the contrary, it implies that the truth will come out, but because it's in a conspiracy mag that only wingnuts read (and even the staff of the magazine thinks the material is pure nutter fantasy, thus why it's in the "crank" file), no one will believe it. Since the movie did not set up the New Frontiersman as a right-wing conspiracy magazine, and adds the voice over, it hits you over the head with the exact opposite of what the book actually says.

Until I read this just now, I didn't even know what the New Frontiersman was. I completely missed this in the movie. I remember thinking as they panned to these small businesses in the foreground of the re-construction of New York in the background, "am I supposed to know what these are?" The camera seemed to linger on them slightly too long, but the New Frontiersman meant nothing to me. I certainly didn't know it was a conspiracy mag, thus I see in hindsight that it is another thing about the movie I didn't get.

 

[Norrin Radd]

In the book, there's a least one other scene with the New Frontiersman offices to make it much clearer. Plus, it's apparent that Rorschach always picks up the mag at the newsstands (which is itself a humorous scene). The final scene is not nearly as good in the movie, partly because the manager who berates the fat guy in the comic is such a damn bastard!

 

[Misfit Toy]

Having big action set pieces with overused slo-mo does nothing to deconstruct the role of action in superhero movies (nor do nipples on a breast plate) - in fact both are exactly what superhero movies do. If anything Snyder's Watchmen was an incredibly traditional superhero movie in style, which is why the style conflicted with the content of the story.

Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but it seemed as though the slo-mo action was SO over-the-top, that it was lampooning the cliche.

 

[Emher]

Wow. I am NOT reading all 32 pages!

I grade it A. It's not perfect but nearly, I think the Directors Cut is ossibly going to push it into that. I loved that it was wasn't mainstream and took it's time with the story. I could literally feel that a big amount of the theatre squirming in their seats, whereas I equally felt the energy of people like me, my brother and my cousin, who where all loving every minute of it.

I haven't read the comic yet but the film is a monumental such a one, fantastic story, design, editing, acting, and not to mention the pitch perfect music! (Well not quite, but I'll get to that in my few complaints) I loved the dark tone of it and was surprised at the gore but it fitted the story. Only time I truly felt repulsed, and rightly so since I was suppossed to be, was the bit with the little murdered girl in Rorscarch past. That made me queasy.

I've mentioned the acting but I still think it deserves more mention. Rorscarch, what more is it be said. Perfect. Nite Owl II/Dan, great performance by Patrick Wilson since I felt at several times that I could easily be bored by this guy but instead I intentified with him. Dr. Manhattan, fantastic. Silk Spectre II/Laurie works, wasn't bothered Åkerman's performance at all.

The Comedian is surprisingly likeable and sympathetic in the movie despite being a complete asshole. Strangely enough there's something wounded in the actor's performance in a couple of key scenes.

-The performances. I thought the standout here was Jeffrey Dean Morgan as The Comedian. He was the character. He made a character who was completely vile and evil still come across as awesome. He even managed to pull off the crying scene. It's a shame he wasn't in more of the movie.

Complety agree. I found myself sad that he wasn't in it more since I'd just gotten to like the guy so much. Also helps that I'm a Jeffrey Dean Morgan fan since earlier, but he impressed by playing such an asshole but still liking him. Hope this guys career takes off because of this, he deserves it.

There are much more I liked, but I'd be writing for far to long if I where to mention it all. So I'll skip to the complaints:

- The use of "Hallelujah" in the Owl ship sex scene. Nearly killed it for me. The scene is supposed to be sexy, no it's bordering parodic. I can still watch it, but it's not having the effect intended on me.

- Tricky Dick's nose! I mean come on, he didn't have nearly that big a nose!

- Needed more Comedian!



Will be seeing it again, but I don't quite know who I'll be able to recommend it to since most people who can handle the tone and violence have already seen it

 

[DarthPipes]

In the book, there's a least one other scene with the New Frontiersman offices to make it much clearer. Plus, it's apparent that Rorschach always picks up the mag at the newsstands (which is itself a humorous scene). The final scene is not nearly as good in the movie, partly because the manager who berates the fat guy in the comic is such a damn bastard!

Yeah, I don't know how they could have excluded the manager's line when he says to the fat bastard "Three million people killed and you weren't one of them."

 

[Norrin Radd]

Yeah, I don't know how they could have excluded the manager's line when he says to the fat bastard "Three million people killed and you weren't one of them."

I was thinking it was almost a prototypical example of how leaving a scene intact from the source material would have been much better than the movie adaptation.

 

[DarthPipes]

Yeah, I don't know how they could have excluded the manager's line when he says to the fat bastard "Three million people killed and you weren't one of them."

I was thinking it was almost a prototypical example of how leaving a scene intact from the source material would have been much better than the movie adaptation.

Like the Manhatten/Ozymandias scene at the end. Should have kept it that way.

 

[USS Mariner]

^Agreed, if only for the sake of giving Veidt and Manhattan more screen time. That, and the lines would make more sense in the Doctor's mouth, given perception of time (and common sense.)

Sure, Laurie still attributed it to Jon, but it was only a guess, and it just doesn't feel as "final."

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

I personally never got the romanticization of Rorschach, and the movie played this up, making me feel rather dirty in the way it so wanted me to sympathize with a man who is a total psychopath

I'm guessing the fact that for the most part his victims seemed to "deserve" what they got played to the same part in audiences who wish rapists to get raped in prison for example.

The ending of the book does not at all imply that Rorschach's journal will bring the truth out in such a way as to undermine Adrian's New World Order

I dipped into the comic again just to contrast and compare the endings. Adrian (in both) asks Manhattan if he was right in the end, to which Manhattan replies "Nothing ever ends." Does he mean mankind's capacity for violence? Or something else?

 

[USS Mariner]

The ending of the book does not at all imply that Rorschach's journal will bring the truth out in such a way as to undermine Adrian's New World Order

I dipped into the comic again just to contrast and compare the endings. Adrian (in both) asks Manhattan if he was right in the end, to which Manhattan replies "Nothing ever ends." Does he mean mankind's capacity for violence? Or something else?

Manhattan was using some verbal fu with Veidt. His response is that nothing as simplistic or as basic as war ever "ends," so the fact that he stopped one holocaust was besides the point, if not outright futile. Because humans will always fight each other given the tools to do so, now that the Manhattan reactor is ready to power the world, people now have an even worse way to kill each other off, and vaporize the planet, at minimum.

 

[Timby]

- The use of "Hallelujah" in the Owl ship sex scene. Nearly killed it for me. The scene is supposed to be sexy, no it's bordering parodic. I can still watch it, but it's not having the effect intended on me.

Let me re-post what I said earlier in the thread:

Considering how the sex scene was played in the comic, it's rather clear that it was meant to be humorous here, too.

*Just rescued people from burning building*

"Man, that was fun."

"Yep."

*Strip off costumes, Dan boffs Laurie in her fuck-me boots*

Alan Moore didn't just construct that sequence to give Dan an arc from "impotent" to "reborn as a hero." He did it to show how ridiculous the idea of someone having a second, heroic identity is in the first place, which the movie expresses perfectly. When Dan is a normal dude on the couch, he crashes and burns and can't get it up. When Dan puts on a suit and saves some folks, all of a sudden, he's all "Holy cow, I'm a superstar, I'm going to have crazy porno sex to LEONARD FUCKING COHEN."

 

[hyzmarca]

The problem is that there is nothing ridiculous about having a second identity, the use of pseudonyms being a time honored tradition in everything from literature, to political discourse, to irregular warfare.

There is also nothing ridiculous about a person with depression-induced impotence being able to achieve erection after performing an activity that releases a large amount of endorphins and dopamine.

While the scene itself was silly in presentation, the actual activity presented was not, and was quite understandable.

 

[Kelso]

I loved it.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

My biggest gripe with the movie though is the very, very end. By having the voiceover of Rorschach reading his journal, the movie assumes what has certainly become a popular interpretation of the ending, but one I think is very wrong. The ending of the book does not at all imply that Rorschach's journal will bring the truth out in such a way as to undermine Adrian's New World Order. Quite the contrary, it implies that the truth will come out, but because it's in a conspiracy mag that only wingnuts read (and even the staff of the magazine thinks the material is pure nutter fantasy, thus why it's in the "crank" file), no one will believe it. Since the movie did not set up the New Frontiersman as a right-wing conspiracy magazine, and adds the voice over, it hits you over the head with the exact opposite of what the book actually says.

Furthermore, whereas the voice-over at the end of the movie begins with the Comedian's murder, in the book, the journal begins with Rorschach describing dead dogs in the alleyway. It seems so grim, rambling, & pointless that it's not even deemed worthy of the Crank File.

 

[Myasishchev]

It's sad to say that people were walking out of the theatre before the end. I don't often see that.

I saw lots of people walking out of Return of the King.

In fact, I was getting so annoyed with the ceaseless fades to black, that I would have, except when I finally stood up to leave, I saw the credits rolling. It's like the movie ended, just to spit in my face.

As for Watchmen, like a lot of people, I thought the ending was too truncated... at the same time playing Manhattan as a vengeful god may well have been a better world-unifying notion than "an alien bee," stinging out of reflex. And of course I missed Veidt telling his life story to his triplet servants in the vivarium... which would have been a beautiful set. I agree with whoever said it that, absent the squid, there was no need for Bubastis the Genetically Engineered Cat, who came off to non-readers as more WTF than anything, I'm sure.

It was the other bits they truncated that really bothered me. The near-total elimination of the cops' scenes ("Raw shark? Why would I want to know where to find raw shark?" comes from the funniest scene in the whole comic) was really tragic. The elimination of Rorshach's psychiatrist's subplot and the resultant messed-up pacing of Rorshach's backstory was damaging to the movie as a movie. Rorshach's origin is rushed through so quickly that it seems perfunctory--I'm hoping that the pacing is restored in DC.

The larger problem with removing the cops, particularly the psychiatrist, and to a lesser degree Bernard and Bernie (although I do understand and agree why the latter were all-but-cut from the film), is that the omnipresent feeling of impending armageddon... well, it's a lot less omnipresent. The impression of a seemingly inevitable apocalypse is much more told, and much less shown, so we don't feel with our hearts why Veidt is going to genocidal lengths to avoid it--and that's a real flaw in the film.

 

[suarezguy]

Agreed. But am I the only one glad that they removed the bit where Dan and Laurie have sex again after exposing the big plot and seeing all those people die? That always struck me as odd.

I never liked that scene in the comic. Dan just goes off to screw Laurie by a swimming pool while Rorschach gets blown anyway outside? The movie did a better job showing that Dan gave a damn about his friendship with Rorschach by having Dan follow Rorschach outside to witness his death.

I think it's metaphorical for how a lot of people think just surviving is the most important thing and are accepting/grateful for the powers and actions of real-life watchmen. I didn't like or get the idea of Owl and Rorschach being friends, so I was disappointed that it was retained and enhanced.

I didn't like the song that played as they were approaching Adrian's lair, it sounded too modern and took me out of it; they also could have cut Archimedes crashing and just had them choose to land somewhat away (they landed pretty close anyways).

My biggest gripe with the movie though is the very, very end. By having the voiceover of Rorschach reading his journal, the movie assumes what has certainly become a popular interpretation of the ending, but one I think is very wrong. The ending of the book does not at all imply that Rorschach's journal will bring the truth out in such a way as to undermine Adrian's New World Order. Quite the contrary, it implies that the truth will come out, but because it's in a conspiracy mag that only wingnuts read (and even the staff of the magazine thinks the material is pure nutter fantasy, thus why it's in the "crank" file), no one will believe it. Since the movie did not set up the New Frontiersman as a right-wing conspiracy magazine, and adds the voice over, it hits you over the head with the exact opposite of what the book actually says.

It suggests that the plot is uncovered and so is different, but I think it worked in the way that the slow-motion in the beginning did, trying to show the relativity of time. By not having the magazine discredited, it makes the cliffhanger and uncertainty stronger, making us think about how much truth is worth, how painful and costly its revealing can be.

 

[hyzmarca]

I didn't like the song that played as they were approaching Adrian's lair, it sounded too modern and took me out of it; they also could have cut Archimedes crashing and just had them choose to land somewhat away (they landed pretty close anyways).

Bob Dylan's All Along The Watchtower as covered by the Jimmi Hendrix Experience is too modern for a movie set in 1985?

Well, I guess Jimmi is a bit of a new upstart. I mean, he's only been dead since 1970.

Thematically, it was a good choice. It pretty much reinforced the idea of impending Armageddon, the only real problem is that the scene wasn't awesome enough for the song. It's the greatest musician in the history of the universe singing a song about the end of the world. During a mildly eventful travel sequence. It would have done better during a fight sequence, perhaps earlier in the film, to set the mood better. Or, at least, it should have played while people stoically walked away from explosions. Or during the actual destruction of New York. Maybe they could have had a montage of nuclear bombers being fulled when Nixon ordered it, set to All along the Watchtower. That would have been cool and meaningful.

Still, I do believe it was an appropriate choice, if slightly underused.

 

[Dream]

Can someone remind me where All Along The Watchtower was played during the movie? I didn't pay that much attention to the song placement during my first viewing of the movie but that should change the next time I go see it.