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WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

Grade the movie


  • Total voters
    291
I didn't like the song that played as they were approaching Adrian's lair, it sounded too modern and took me out of it; they also could have cut Archimedes crashing and just had them choose to land somewhat away (they landed pretty close anyways).

Bob Dylan's All Along The Watchtower as covered by the Jimmi Hendrix Experience is too modern for a movie set in 1985?

Well, I guess Jimmi is a bit of a new upstart. I mean, he's only been dead since 1970.

Thematically, it was a good choice. It pretty much reinforced the idea of impending Armageddon, the only real problem is that the scene wasn't awesome enough for the song. It's the greatest musician in the history of the universe singing a song about the end of the world. During a mildly eventful travel sequence. It would have done better during a fight sequence, perhaps earlier in the film, to set the mood better. Or, at least, it should have played while people stoically walked away from explosions. Or during the actual destruction of New York. Maybe they could have had a montage of nuclear bombers being fulled when Nixon ordered it, set to All along the Watchtower. That would have been cool and meaningful.

Still, I do believe it was an appropriate choice, if slightly underused.



Watchmen credits Dylan's version of the song, so I'm not sure why they went with the Hendrix one. I guess it's the one people know? Too bad they didn't use the BSG one. :p

Can someone remeind me where All Along The Watchtower was played during the movie? I didn't pay that much attention during my first viewing of the movie but that should change the next time I go see it.

At the end, when Manhattan comes back to Earth and then moving on with the approach to Antarctica. They timed it perfectly so that the third verse matched up with the images on screen - a prince watching, two men approaching, a cat growling, etc.
 
I personally never got the romanticization of Rorschach, and the movie played this up, making me feel rather dirty in the way it so wanted me to sympathize with a man who is a total psychopath

I'm guessing the fact that for the most part his victims seemed to "deserve" what they got played to the same part in audiences who wish rapists to get raped in prison for example.

My feeling is that the idea of someone who sees morality purely in terms of black and white expresses a kind of "simplicity" in the world that people wish really existed. Shades of gray always leads to complications and he just removes all of that uncertainty completely.
 
Can someone remeind me where All Along The Watchtower was played during the movie? I didn't pay that much attention during my first viewing of the movie but that should change the next time I go see it.

At the end, when Manhattan comes back to Earth and then moving on with the approach to Antarctica. They timed it perfectly so that the third verse matched up with the images on screen - a prince watching, two men approaching, a cat growling, etc.

Thanks. That sounds pretty awesome.
 
Yep. This was one of the rare moments - other than the opening sequence - where I was happy with the film.
 
I didn't like the song that played as they were approaching Adrian's lair,

Issue 10 of the series ended with that scene, and the title of that issue, "Two Riders Were Approaching...", came from All Along The Watchtower. As others have said, the song, and certain lyrics in particular (The line used in the comic was "Outside in the distance a wild cat did growl, two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl") fit the scene perfectly.

In fact, the novel sets up several perfect musical cues, only some of which were used.
 
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I personally never got the romanticization of Rorschach, and the movie played this up, making me feel rather dirty in the way it so wanted me to sympathize with a man who is a total psychopath

I'm guessing the fact that for the most part his victims seemed to "deserve" what they got played to the same part in audiences who wish rapists to get raped in prison for example.

My feeling is that the idea of someone who sees morality purely in terms of black and white expresses a kind of "simplicity" in the world that people wish really existed. Shades of gray always leads to complications and he just removes all of that uncertainty completely.

It's more than that. It's actual dissatisfaction with a criminal justice system that some people believe coddles monsters. Rorschach, like Judge Dread (and, perhaps, The Punisher) was meant to parody the tough-on-crime stance that is so popular, without concern for due process. The only problem is that they aren't a parody, rather they are exemplars of the kind of criminal justice people really want.

In real life, we have due process because it is difficult to separate the innocent from the guilty, and because absolute power invites abuse. Rorshach doesn't need due process, because there is no chance of him accidently condeming an innocent person and no chance of him becomming corrupted.

He's the sort of guy who makes people feel safer, because protecting people from predatory criminals is not a 9-5 job for him, it is his life. He won't be sitting around dunking donuts while you're being raped and murdered in your own home. He doesn't let procedure get in his way, either, like Jack Bauer no rulebooks prevent him from doing what's right. And that isn't a bad thing, because he's the watchman who never has to be watched; his strong back-and-white morality prevents him from ever harming an innocent person, so the good people can always feel safe around him. And it doesn't hurt that he's as charismatic as hell.

If Moore didn't want Rorshach to be a role model, then he screwed up royally. Rorshach, as written, is a role model. He's a psycologically messed up role model, but that makes him more powerful, not less. While Rorshach's activities should not be emulated, his core value, the rejection of apathy in the face of suffering and predadation, is certainly something that everyone should take to heart.

And his methods, they're just a guilty pleasure. In the comic book world where we know he isn't executing jaywalkers, it's allright.
 
In real life, we have due process because it is difficult to separate the innocent from the guilty, and because absolute power invites abuse. Rorshach doesn't need due process, because there is no chance of him accidently condeming an innocent person and no chance of him becomming corrupted.
What about the scene in the bar where he breaks a guy's fingers as a means to getting information? The guy was to all intents and purposes an innocent. The information was not forthcoming. A criminal act committed by Rorschach that wasn't even any use as a means to an end.

Or indeed the scene I've spoofed in my avatar - a guy takes a beating for spraying graffiti. Who's the bigger criminal?
 
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Maybe they used the Hendrix version of "All Along the Watchtower" because they'd already used a Dylan song over the opening credits? ::shrug:: I dunno. I like both versions, so it didn't bother me all that much.
 
While Rorshach's activities should not be emulated, his core value, the rejection of apathy in the face of suffering and predadation, is certainly something that everyone should take to heart.

And his methods, they're just a guilty pleasure. In the comic book world where we know he isn't executing jaywalkers, it's allright.

But that's not Rorschach's core value. Rorschach isn't a guy who believes in rejecting apathy in the face of suffering and predation -- we see him engage in apathy in the face of suffering and predation all the time. Rorschach's central value was expressed at the end of "The Abyss Gazes Also:"

Rorschach said:
Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone.

Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later.

Born from oblivion; bear children, Hell-bound as ourselves. Go into oblivion.

There is nothing else.

Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose.

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs.

It's us. Only us.

There's a thing line between Nihilism and Existentialism. Both begin from the fundamental premise that the world lacks any inherent meaning -- that there is no God or higher authority, and that any meaning we find in life is actually the product of human imagination. For an Existentialist, this is an affirmation: We are free. "Man is his freedom," an Existentialist believes, and the ability to imbue the world with your own meaning is a good thing.

For a Nihilist, though, the fact that we have to imbue the world with our own meaning just means that that meaning is a lie that we're telling ourselves. The Nihilist interprets the idea of a world without inherent meaning in a negative light -- if we have to impose meaning upon the world, then that makes our imposition a false one, an act of desperation to make ourselves feel better, not an act of hope. There is no real point to imbuing our lives with our own meaning, because there is no real point to anything. All is vanity to the Nihilist.

That's Rorschach. He's not an Existentialist, he's a Nihilist. In examining Rorschach's psychology, the audience should be left with the same feeling that the Psychologist in the graphic novel is when he stares at a Rorschach test:

I sat on the bed. I looked at the Rorschach blot. I tried to pretend it looked like a spreading tree, shadows pooled beneath it, but it didn't.

It looked more like a dead cat I once found, the fat glistening grubs withering blinding, squirming over each other, frantically tunneling away from the light. But even that is avoiding the real horror.

The horror is this: In the end, it is simply a picture of empty meaningless blackness.

We are alone.

There is nothing else.

From my point of view, Rorschach is a fundamentally disturbed individual whose sick and twisted version of Nihilism has justified his decision to commit some horrible acts of murder and torture against anyone he designates as being undeserving of life and safety. He's not an admirable man at all--he's severely mentally ill. His only real redeeming values, frankly, are the fact that he still acts to protect the psychological innocence of children (stopping calling his landlord a whore after she tells him they don't know) and the fact that he acts to give the general populace the real truth behind the attack on New York. Even though he's a Nihilist, he does believe that others have the right to see the truth, too, and he'll die for that right.

Of course, frankly, it also played into his egotistical Nihilism. He'd been looking for a long time for something to die for, I'd argue.
 
What's strange is that his defiance of the "plan" at the end is probably the highlight of the character, if not the book. I mean, what happens to him is ultimately meaningless but the fact that in his weird black/white morality, he can't accept that a smaller crime will prevent a larger crime.
It makes definitely makes Dan and Laurie seem like dicks - especially in the book when they don't even react to what has happened.
 
In real life, we have due process because it is difficult to separate the innocent from the guilty, and because absolute power invites abuse. Rorshach doesn't need due process, because there is no chance of him accidently condeming an innocent person and no chance of him becomming corrupted.
What about the scene in the bar where he breaks a guy's fingers as a means to getting information? The guy was to all intents and purposes an innocent. The information was not forthcoming. A criminal act committed by Rorschach that wasn't even any use as a means to an end.

Or indeed the scene I've spoofed in my avatar - a guy takes a beating for spraying graffiti. Who's the bigger criminal?
Sounds like Jack Bauer.
 
In real life, we have due process because it is difficult to separate the innocent from the guilty, and because absolute power invites abuse. Rorshach doesn't need due process, because there is no chance of him accidently condeming an innocent person and no chance of him becomming corrupted.
What about the scene in the bar where he breaks a guy's fingers as a means to getting information? The guy was to all intents and purposes an innocent. The information was not forthcoming. A criminal act committed by Rorschach that wasn't even any use as a means to an end.

Or indeed the scene I've spoofed in my avatar - a guy takes a beating for spraying graffiti. Who's the bigger criminal?
Sounds like Jack Bauer.

Another character who'd be a despicable human being if he was real.
 
Rorschach and the Comedian clearly have issues but so does Ozymandias. Reading the book, I get the sense that Ozy really doesn't care about the people he's killed. Maybe he claims to care...but I don't think he truly feels for them like a normal person would. The only time he really shows uncertainty about his scheme is when Dr. Manhattan plants the seed of doubt in him that it may not work. I think Ozy is a sociopath.
 
btw, did anyone else notice in the opening credits, the shot of the first Silk Spectre's retirement dinner matched the famous Last Supper picture

lastsupperwatchmen.jpg


Pretty cool, although now it actually makes me more think of BSG :D
 
- The use of "Hallelujah" in the Owl ship sex scene. Nearly killed it for me. The scene is supposed to be sexy, no it's bordering parodic. I can still watch it, but it's not having the effect intended on me.

Let me re-post what I said earlier in the thread:

Considering how the sex scene was played in the comic, it's rather clear that it was meant to be humorous here, too.

Watchmen said:
*Just rescued people from burning building*

"Man, that was fun."

"Yep."

*Strip off costumes, Dan boffs Laurie in her fuck-me boots*

Alan Moore didn't just construct that sequence to give Dan an arc from "impotent" to "reborn as a hero." He did it to show how ridiculous the idea of someone having a second, heroic identity is in the first place, which the movie expresses perfectly. When Dan is a normal dude on the couch, he crashes and burns and can't get it up. When Dan puts on a suit and saves some folks, all of a sudden, he's all "Holy cow, I'm a superstar, I'm going to have crazy porno sex to LEONARD FUCKING COHEN."
I don't mind the Cohen, I mind the song. Then again there was a period when it was used in EVERYTHING so I've grown tired of it.
btw, did anyone else notice in the opening credits, the shot of the first Silk Spectre's retirement dinner matched the famous Last Supper picture

lastsupperwatchmen.jpg


Pretty cool, although now it actually makes me more think of BSG :D
Yeah we had a good laugh at that (and sadly a big part of the room didn't seem to get the joke). I dig Dollar Bill and Hooded Justice gzing, longingly, into each others eyes :lol:
 
btw, did anyone else notice in the opening credits, the shot of the first Silk Spectre's retirement dinner matched the famous Last Supper picture

lastsupperwatchmen.jpg


Pretty cool, although now it actually makes me more think of BSG :D
Yeah we had a good laugh at that (and sadly a big part of the room didn't seem to get the joke). I dig Dollar Bill and Hooded Justice gzing, longingly, into each others eyes :lol:

That's Captain Metropolis actually. They were an item in the comic.
 
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