WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

That's Rorschach. He's not an Existentialist, he's a Nihilist... Of course, frankly, it also played into his egotistical Nihilism. He'd been looking for a long time for something to die for, I'd argue.

More than that. He's a hardcore Randian Objectivist; an extreme version of Steve Dikto's The Question and to an extant, Mr. A.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_(comics)

Alan Moore on the subject

CBA: Do you recall The Question?
Alan: Yes, I do. That was another very interesting character, and it was almost a pure Steve Ditko character, in that it was odd-looking. "The Question" didn't look like any other super-hero on the market, and it also seemed to be a kind of mainstream comics version of Steve Ditko's far more radical "Mr. A," from witzend.

(later...)

CBA: Did you explore her philosophy?
Alan: I had to look at The Fountainhead. I have to say I found Ayn Rand's philosophy laughable. It was a "white supremacist dreams of the master race," burnt in an early-20th century form. Her ideas didn't really appeal to me, but they seemed to be the kind of ideas that people would espouse, people who might secretly believe themselves to be part of the elite, and not part of the excluded majority. I would basically disagree with all of Ditko's ideas, but he has to be given credit for expressing these political ideas. I believe some feminists regard Dave Sim in much the same light; they might disagree with everything he says, but at least there is some sort of sexual-political debate going on there. So I've got respect for Ditko.

(later...)
CBA: Just to map this out: The prototype for Rorshach was The Question, right?
Alan: The Question was Rorschach, yep. Dr. Manhattan and Captain Atom were obviously equivalent. Nite-Owl and the new Blue Beetle—well, the Ted Kord Blue Beetle—were equivalent. Because there was a pre-existing, original Blue Beetle in the Charlton cosmology, I thought it might be nice to have an original Nite-Owl. I can't really say that Nightshade was a big inspiration. I never thought she was a particularly strong or interesting female character. The Silk Spectre was just a female character because I needed to have a heroine in there. Since we weren't doing the Charlton characters anymore, there was no reason why I should stick with Nightshade, I could take a different sort of super-heroine, something a bit like the Phantom Lady, the Black Canary, generally my favorite sort of costume heroines anyway. The Silk Spectre, in that she's the girl of the group, sort of was the equivalent of Nightshade, but really, there's not much connection beyond that. The Comedian was The Peacemaker, we had a greater degree of freedom, and we decided to make him slightly right-wing, patriotic, and we mixed in a little bit of Nick Fury into The Peacemaker make-up, and probably a bit of the standard Captain America patriotic hero-type. So, yeah, these characters started out like that, to fill gaps in the story that had been left by the Charlton heroes, but we didn't have to strictly stick to that Charlton formula. In some places, we stuck to it more closely, and in some places, we didn't.

see: http://www.twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/09moore.html

 

[Misfit Toy]

What about the scene in the bar where he breaks a guy's fingers as a means to getting information? The guy was to all intents and purposes an innocent. The information was not forthcoming. A criminal act committed by Rorschach that wasn't even any use as a means to an end.

Or indeed the scene I've spoofed in my avatar - a guy takes a beating for spraying graffiti. Who's the bigger criminal?

Sounds like Jack Bauer.

Another character who'd be a despicable human being if he was real.

That's my point - I agree.

 

[Norrin Radd]

This sounds crazy, but what if Martin Scorsese directed Watchmen?

The Comedian: Robert De Niro
Silk Spectre: Cameron Diaz
Ozymandias: Leonardo Dicaprio
Nite Owl: Matt Damon
Dr. Manhattan: Daniel Day Lewis
Rorschach: Joe Pesci (I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?)

 

[Caligula]

This sounds crazy, but what if Martin Scorsese directed Watchmen?

The Comedian: Robert De Niro
Silk Spectre: Cameron Diaz
Ozymandias: Leonardo Dicaprio
Nite Owl: Matt Damon
Dr. Manhattan: Daniel Day Lewis
Rorschach: Joe Pesci (I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?)

When I put together my own personal all-star cast for a Watchmen movie some years ago, I also picked De Niro for the role of the Comedian. I also had Kevin Bacon as Rorschach.... a pick that was influenced by his performance in Murder in the First.

 

[Dream]

btw, did anyone else notice in the opening credits, the shot of the first Silk Spectre's retirement dinner matched the famous Last Supper picture

Pretty cool, although now it actually makes me more think of BSG

So who are the Cylons in that picture?

 

[Norrin Radd]

When I put together my own personal all-star cast for a Watchmen movie some years ago, I also picked De Niro for the role of the Comedian. I also had Kevin Bacon as Rorschach.... a pick that was influenced by his performance in Murder in the First.

Bacon looks virtually identical to Rorschach. And I could easily see him pulling off the role. Good pick.

 

[Turtletrekker]

My first choice for Rorshack, waaaaay back when I first read the book, was a guy whose real name I didn't even know at the time. Just, "the guy who played the Scorpio Killer in the first 'Dirty Harry' movie". That guy, one Andrew Robinson, went on to play Garak on DS9. I think he could've pulled it off (of course he's too old now), but not as well as Jackie Earle Halley.

 

[Turtletrekker]

btw, did anyone else notice in the opening credits, the shot of the first Silk Spectre's retirement dinner matched the famous Last Supper picture

I actually didn't notice, although it seems obvious now. At the time, I was too busy wondering "What the heck is Eddie doing there?" He was kicked out of the Minutemen after trying to rape Sally, and I doubt the rest of the team was aware of the baby's true parentage. It doesn't make sense at all.

 

[DarthPipes]

My biggest gripe with the movie though is the very, very end. By having the voiceover of Rorschach reading his journal, the movie assumes what has certainly become a popular interpretation of the ending, but one I think is very wrong. The ending of the book does not at all imply that Rorschach's journal will bring the truth out in such a way as to undermine Adrian's New World Order. Quite the contrary, it implies that the truth will come out, but because it's in a conspiracy mag that only wingnuts read (and even the staff of the magazine thinks the material is pure nutter fantasy, thus why it's in the "crank" file), no one will believe it. Since the movie did not set up the New Frontiersman as a right-wing conspiracy magazine, and adds the voice over, it hits you over the head with the exact opposite of what the book actually says.

Furthermore, whereas the voice-over at the end of the movie begins with the Comedian's murder, in the book, the journal begins with Rorschach describing dead dogs in the alleyway. It seems so grim, rambling, & pointless that it's not even deemed worthy of the Crank File.

Right. There will be some who will believe Rorshach's journal but there are some who believe in Big Foot. At most, I can the journal inspiring a bunch of Rorshach-like vigilantes, some more insane than others.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

^And the other question is who would read that thing far enough into it that they would start getting to the good stuff (i.e. the Comedian's murder & Ozymandias' plot) beyond the early portions which are just the random ramblings of the urban decay around him.

 

[Caligula]

Just got out of my third viewing. I can already tell that this is one of those films that I'll be studying (and, needless to say, enjoying) for years to come.

 

[Dream]

I actually didn't notice, although it seems obvious now. At the time, I was too busy wondering "What the heck is Eddie doing there?" He was kicked out of the Minutemen after trying to rape Sally, and I doubt the rest of the team was aware of the baby's true parentage. It doesn't make sense at all.

Maybe the media asked for a picture of the entire team and Sally reluctantly agreed? The news that she was almost raped hadn't gotten out yet so she would have no reason not to invite him.

The scene is probably there just to look cool. I doubt the writers put much thought behind it.

 

[DarthPipes]

I actually didn't notice, although it seems obvious now. At the time, I was too busy wondering "What the heck is Eddie doing there?" He was kicked out of the Minutemen after trying to rape Sally, and I doubt the rest of the team was aware of the baby's true parentage. It doesn't make sense at all.

Maybe the media asked for a picture of the entire team and Sally reluctantly agreed? The news that she was almost raped hadn't gotten out yet so she would have no reason not to invite him.

The scene is probably there just to look cool. I doubt the writers put much thought behind it.

That's my thought as well.

 

[Manticore]

I actually didn't notice, although it seems obvious now. At the time, I was too busy wondering "What the heck is Eddie doing there?" He was kicked out of the Minutemen after trying to rape Sally, and I doubt the rest of the team was aware of the baby's true parentage. It doesn't make sense at all.

Maybe the media asked for a picture of the entire team and Sally reluctantly agreed? The news that she was almost raped hadn't gotten out yet so she would have no reason not to invite him.

The scene is probably there just to look cool. I doubt the writers put much thought behind it.

That's my thought as well.

Heck, Silhouette was off the team too by then, IIRC, and in such a way that I doubt that she'd want to be in that picture...let alone with her lover, the reason why she was kicked off.

 

[Dream]

Maybe the media asked for a picture of the entire team and Sally reluctantly agreed? The news that she was almost raped hadn't gotten out yet so she would have no reason not to invite him.

The scene is probably there just to look cool. I doubt the writers put much thought behind it.

That's my thought as well.

Heck, Silhouette was off the team too by then, IIRC, and in such a way that I doubt that she'd want to be in that picture...let alone with her lover, the reason why she was kicked off.

Also Silhouette's girlfriend is wearing a nurse uniform in that photo for some reason. Does that woman wear the uniform everywhere she goes?

 

[Bad Bishop]

btw, did anyone else notice in the opening credits, the shot of the first Silk Spectre's retirement dinner matched the famous Last Supper picture

I actually didn't notice, although it seems obvious now. At the time, I was too busy wondering "What the heck is Eddie doing there?" He was kicked out of the Minutemen after trying to rape Sally, and I doubt the rest of the team was aware of the baby's true parentage. It doesn't make sense at all.

Sally's retirement dinner would have been around 1955. That's about 15 years after the attempted rape. Maybe it took that long to forgive Blake.

 

[Turtletrekker]

^ I kinda think she sorta forgave him about seven/eight months before the party...

And someone upthread mentioned that the attempted rape wasn't public knowledge yet, but the Minutemen definitely knew about it.

Oh well, it's really not a big thing, and the pic does look cool.

 

[Frontman]

Well I was kind of disappointed by portraying of characters I imagined them otherwise. For instance I imagined that Rorschach looks more like Johnny Rotten from Sex Pistols

 

[Yassim]

I'm a huge fan of the graphic novel, so I couldn't watch it in any terms other than, does this improve on the original in any way?

It did, in some -

- I thought the changes to Ozymandias' plot made the scheme more "of a piece" with the story. The squid came out of left field. The Manhattan bombs were better foreshadowed, and more relevant.

- Liked the foreshadowing with the Intrinsic Field trap in Antartica.

- the characterizations of Rorschach, Nite Owl, the Comedian and Dr. Manhattan were so good, I'll picture them when I reread the graphic novel.

But a lot was lost -

- instead of an opening montage featuring characters who don't figure much, why not feature the main characters? Part of what's missing from the movie is, the characters don't have much history. A large piece of the story comes from the fact that these characters began as the Super-Friends - they needed more of that history.

- What was done to Adrian's character was a shame. I can't blame the actor - it was a script choice to play him as a corporate bad guy from the start. In the novel, he's charming, sincere and emotional. His actions in the novel seem like a betrayal, but in the movie, he's the only candidate for the villain. He's unfailingly kind in the novel, in the movie, he's a dick.

- the pacing was odd. Some things got dwelled on that could have moved much faster. Like Rorschach in the prison men's room - we all know what's going to happen, it's a gag, move on. But it plodded. Or when Dreiberg recreates the frame from the comic in his cave, with the Comedian's button - it just seemed to drag. But the Comedian's scene with Dr. Manhattan went by in a flash.

- I thought they missed the most cinematic moment in the novel. Dr. Manhattan standing over the dead Vietnamese girl dissolves to Dr. M standing over the Comedian. They also didn't play much with the mismatched "audio" from the comic, during Manhattan's interview/Dan and Laurie's fight. I thought that would translate much more interestingly.

- Dr. Manhattan's slow drift away from being human made more sense of him as he is in the "present". In the movie, he was always this ethereal nudist... made less sense.

- the sex scene...

Alan Moore didn't just construct that sequence to give Dan an arc from "impotent" to "reborn as a hero." He did it to show how ridiculous the idea of someone having a second, heroic identity is in the first place, which the movie expresses perfectly. When Dan is a normal dude on the couch, he crashes and burns and can't get it up. When Dan puts on a suit and saves some folks, all of a sudden, he's all "Holy cow, I'm a superstar, I'm going to have crazy porno sex to LEONARD FUCKING COHEN."

I never got that from the original. I thought the writing was much more on-the-nose. As Dreiberg, he's a victim, he does what he's told, he's afraid. He puts on the costume to take charge, to make a difference, to do what he feels is right, to matter. So when the movie took a comic take on that scene, I was quite disappointed.

- I didn't need so much ass-kicking in Antartica. I get it.

- I don't want to be the guy who says "what about this line?!?" - I know it's an adaptation - but two of the greatest moments in comics were lost. "Yes, yes, he killed Blake and half of New York. Excuse me, I'm explaining it to Laurie 30 seconds ago." I thought the film could do something great with that.
and
"I DID IT!!!" more of what was missing from Ozymandias - a soul. In the movie, he never made me believe that he *felt* he was serving a higher good. He argued it, but without the sincerity and emotion I got from the novel.

So it was good enough - which is something, it could have been awful. I don't need to see it again in the theatre, but might check out the DE when it comes out.

 

[Ethros]

Maybe I'll get crucified for saying this, but I don't think I've ever even heard that Leonard Cohen song (any version of it) before in my life, so I had no problems with its inclusion at all