Was TNG less progressive than TOS?

[Mark 2000]

So she was a high-ranking woman with an extremely important job, who was also raising her son alone...how is this not a positive?

Yes, I’m saying space mommy who was the captain’s love interest with a “strip queen” walk who’s original character description was that she was horny but no one would date her because they felt bad she was a widow was not positive. Right down there with the counselor that was supposed to have four boobs. Hell, even Macha came about because Gene through Vazquez from Aliens was sexy. Fontana toned a lot of this stuff down as best she could, but Gene was no feminist and neither were his intentions while writing these characters. He couldn’t even let Wesley stay Lesley.

 

[Trekker4747]

TNG does fail the progressive test. There’s basically one person of color on the regular cast, if you don’t count Worf since he’s an alien. I love Patrick Stewart, but Yephet Kotto should have been captain. Or Riker shouldn’t have been a bland Steven Collins clone. Or even cast an actual Hispanic as “Macha Hernandez”.
Gay issues were avoided. Gene kept promising but never delivered. Berman was downright homophobic. Someone mentioned the skants were supposed to show gay crewmen which is as nutty as saying a woman in pants is a lesbian. It was just a sign of changed gender norms.
And outside of Yar, whose actress quit because she felt like wall decoration, the women were all caregivers. Sure men have always played doctors in the show, but Bev was specifically a mom.
People say the 80s were conservative, but Gene was no Reganite and he was syndicated, meaning he had a lot of freedom. Meanwhile, network shows like Golden Girls, Designing Women, and Murphy Brown were exploring issues like race, abortion, homosexuality, family dynamics, and feminism with way more depth than TNG. Plus, a third of TNG is Clinton era and it actually got more bland and conservative, not less.

The show being syndicated means it had to be more conservative than other series because they had to *sell* the show! All of the other shows you mention had their networks fixed and it's not like they came out of the gate with heavier topics they had to earn the stability in audience and sponsors to do that.

TNG had to sell itself and at the time doing that with gay characters would have been difficult.

 

[Tosk]

Most of the things you list aren't things that made it to the final product, so I will ignore them. It doesn't leave much left, but...

Yes, I’m saying space mommy who was the captain’s love interest [...] was not positive.

What specifically is negative about a character who happens to be a mother as well as potential love interest for another character?

 

[Alexander Corrino]

IIRC, the "walks like a striptease queen" thing is taken from the original description of the B. Crusher character.

 

[Jayson1]

I find it interesting that Crusher is dismissed as a being I guess soft just because she was in a caregiving role but to me she always had a pretty bold personality. Always with a sarcastic quip and not afraid to say her mind. One of the few people who stood up to Picard if she disagreed with something. She outranked everyone except Picard and Riker. Also when they tried to go even more edgy it backfired in Dr Pulaski who nobody liked. Also not only did they add RO but they often had female Admirals or women in respected and powerful jobs. The helm was usually a female pilot after Wesley left.

Jason

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

So she was a high-ranking woman with an extremely important job, who was also raising her son alone...how is this not a positive?

Sisko was also a father, a wonderful one in fact, but he was never just defined via the traitsof family man and caregiver alone.

And really, stereotyping is not necessarily about one group being portrayed as "negative".

I think the first Trek show to actually portray a well-rounded female character was DS9 with Kira. She displayed a wide range of emotions and abilities.

 

[Tosk]

Sisko was also a father, a wonderful one in fact, but he was never just defined via the traitsof family man and caregiver alone.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making. Are you saying that because Beverly was at times in an episode only to function as a doctor or as a mother there is a problem?

I think the first Trek show to actually portray a well-rounded female character was DS9 with Kira. She displayed a wide range of emotions and abilities.

Did Beverly not express multiple emotions and abilities? And don't think for second this is somehow me arguing about Kira. I love the character. I'm just after why the doctor on the Enterprise being a woman is somehow a bad thing.

And really, stereotyping is not necessarily about one group being portrayed as "negative".

If they aren't talking about it as being a negative, then what is the complaint? And that's my point anyway..."a woman caring for people is a stereotype" they say. "So what?" I reply.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I'm just after why the doctor on the Enterprise being a woman is somehow a bad thing.

If they aren't talking about it as being a negative, then what is the complaint? And that's my point anyway..."a woman caring for people is a stereotype" they say. "So what?" I reply.

Nobody said that the doctor being a woman is a bad thing. Showing women as only primarily caregiving types is a bad thing.

Sisko was a father, a wonderful one, but he was never primarily defined via his role as a caregiver.

Oh, and all the main cast of TNG have highly important jobs. So yeah, at least they didn't make Bev and Deanna secretaries or telephone girls... (Shoutout to Uhura.) And for the record, no, I'm not saying bing a secretary is a bad thing.

Being a funny, less intellectual, talkative guy is not a bad thing, per se. Having all your black guys be like that is.

If you don't get why stereotyping is a bad thing, I don't know what to say. There is a wealth of sociological and psychological studies to explore.

Most of all, it's bad and dull writing.

Argh, my keyboard is wonky.

 

[Tosk]

Showing women as only primarily caregiving types is a bad thing.

Why? People just keep saying "stereotyping!" ...I don't accept that as an answer in and of itself. In what specific way does the stereotype "women often care about others, both in their home life and professionally" harmful?

And that doesn't mean that I'm saying women should be in that field, or that they are better at it than men, or that many stereotypes aren't stupid...

If you don't get why stereotyping is a bad thing, I don't know what to say.

I get why stereotyping can be a bad thing, I'm asking why it is in this specific circumstance. Why is it "bad and dull writing" to have a woman as doctor, mother, and commander? Would it be wrong if Beverly was exactly the same but Deanna was a transporter operator? Or is it only wrong because both of them are in fields that can supposedly be summed up as "caregiving", despite their areas of expertise being wildly different? When Yar was alive it was okay but somehow not after she died, even though neither Beverly or Deanna changed jobs.

 

[Tenacity]

Showing women as only primarily caregiving types is a bad thing.

The concensus opinion is that no it's not.

Troi was referred to as a counselor, but the majority of the time we didn't see her being a psychiatric counselor, debatibly that was a secondary assignment for her. The majority of the time she was on the bridge assistng the captain and employing her psychic abilities.

Sure men have always played doctors in the show, but Bev was specifically a mom

A contemporary to TNG was the show Growing Pains. The father was a doctor, but we saw him being a nurturing dad the majority of the time

Or even cast an actual Hispanic as “Macha Hernandez”.

Going by that the character of Picard would of had to of been played by a French actor. The actor playing LaForge would of had to of been of the particular culture and ethnicity that LaForge was supposedly born too (not all of Africa has a single cuture or ethnicity).

Actors do this thing called "acting," the actress playing a hypothetical Macha Hernandez wouldn't of had to of been Hispanic, just played by a actress who could play a Hispanic character.

but Gene was no Reganite

But many of the audience would have been, planting the show firmly in the center enabled people from both sides of the political scale to enjoy the production. Making the show overtly liberal would have been a bad business plan.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Why are you having a go at the actress now?

@Mark 2000 is not.

From https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Beverly_Crusher:

Beverly Crusher was one of the least-defined characters when TNG was conceived in 1986. She was merely present to act as a mother to Wesley (at one point a female, called Leslie) and as a romantic foil to Picard. According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, she did not even receive her own page of background notes until the final edition of the writer's guide. The original casting call for her character was as follows:

"BEVERLY CRUSHER – Leslie's 35-year-old mother. She serves as the chief medical officer on the Enterprise. If it were not for her intelligence, personality, beauty, and the fact that she has a natural walk of a striptease queen, Capt. Picard might not have agreed to her request that Leslie observe bridge activities; therefore letting her daughter's intelligence carry events further."​

 

[Tenacity]

Beverly Crusher was one of the least-defined characters when TNG was conceived in 1986.

Thankfully in actual episodes Crusher was typically written as a professional and skilled doctor, her character (as is common with TV main characters) grew and devoloped over the series run. Her interests in producing theater and becoming a qualified bridge officer being two examples. And yes she was shown to be a working mother, who was devoted to her child.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Thankfully in actual episodes Crusher was typically written as a professional and skilled doctor, her character (as is common with TV main characters) grew and devoloped over the series run. Her interests in producing theater and becoming a qualified bridge officer being two examples. And yes she was shown to be a working mother, who was devoted to her child.

An excellent summary of the evolution and growth of the character. The two episodes involving Dr. Rega’s metaphasic shielding really brought that home.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Just to be completely clear, the passage quoted is not mine, it's from Memory Alpha.

I don't think there's much doubt that Beverly grew beyond the character as originally conceived. It's probably worth noting that Wesley was no longer a regular aboard ship after "Final Mission" and that Roddenberry wasn't showrunner after mid TNG S1.

 

[Mark 2000]

Why are you having a go at the actress now?

I’m not. That’s Gene’s description of the character in one of the early show pitches. It’s the same term he used decades earlier to describe Number One.

Actors do this thing called "acting," the actress playing a hypothetical Macha Hernandez wouldn't of had to of been Hispanic, just played by a actress who could play a Hispanic character.

Look up “whitewashing”. There isn’t enough room here to explain it. As a Hispanic myself I don’t appreciate how few roles Hispanic actors get outside drug dealers and maids and that good roles could go to “anyone who can play Hispanic”. Janette Goldstein had to wear brown face to play Vasquez, which is totally gross. I find your attitude a bit offensive.

But many of the audience would have been

Totally ignores all the other shows listed by me and others that were progressive and had huge audiences in the 80s and 90s.

I don't accept that as an answer in and of itself. In what specific way does the stereotype "women often care about others, both in their home life and professionally" harmful?

You sound like someone who’s never experienced stereotyping. You’re demanding proof that something is negative because *you personally* don’t see it as negative. You don’t have the right to dictate to others who they are and how they should be portrayed.

 

[Brennyren]

Why? People just keep saying "stereotyping!" ...I don't accept that as an answer in and of itself. In what specific way does the stereotype "women often care about others, both in their home life and professionally" harmful?

You seem to be equating "harmful" with being overtly derogatory. Of course there's nothing overtly derogatory about saying "women often care about others." However, when all of the female characters in the main cast are caretaking types, the message being sent is that that's the primary and appropriate role for women. Even Guinan served primarily as a caretaker, functioning more as the sage advisor serving the white male captain (and others) than as a well-rounded character in her own right.

Simply for more of a balance, I would have liked to see more of Michelle Forbes's Ro, who was the antithesis of the stereotype, being troubled and abrasive and not at all known for her empathy. That said, I found it troubling that she and Tasha Yar, the "strong" and less conventionally-feminine women, were both presented as the products of dark and troubled pasts, Ro in the refugee camps and Yar on her abandoned colony. So women become tough as a reaction to trauma, while men can be tough for any number of reasons, including intrinsic ability? That's what seems to be implied.

 

[Trekker4747]

In an alternate universe: TNG's CMO was a male character (Jack Crushed, a widower and father to a teenage girl, Ashley.) In this thread in that universe "Was TNG less progressive? What, women can't be doctors?"

Seeing them as putting a woman as a doctor and seeing that as a "caregiver" role is just stupid. Doctors aren't there to nurture and baby you back to health, she wasn't a wet nurse. She was a doctor, highly educated and experienced. Her job was to use science to heal wounds and find cures for newly discovered diseases. Not to stroke people's hair and go "There, there, Beverly's here to make you all better with love."

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH CASTING A WOMAN AS A DOCTOR!!!

 

[Tosk]

You’re demanding proof that something is negative because *you personally* don’t see it as negative.

No, I'm asking for an explanation. Just saying a word over and over doesn't explain why. I've sought more specific answers about the ratio of female characters and their careers, and I've opined that lumping the two characters together isn't even accurate. No one has to answer, but it doesn't mean I can't ask.

However, when all of the female characters in the main cast are caretaking types, the message being sent is that that's the primary and appropriate role for women.

This is why I keep trying to carve into the notion though. As I noted before, Beverly is the chief medical officer, and Deanna is a counselor. Two very different fields that everyone seems to keep lumping together. If someone acts as though medicine and psychology are basically the same thing, who is doing the stereotyping here?

I’m not.

I was not aware of that, so I retract and apologize.

 

[Tenacity]

I don't think there's much doubt that Beverly grew beyond the character as originally conceived.

As did all the main characters.

. Janette Goldstein had to wear brown face to play Vasquez

It's Jenette actually, and part of Ms. Goldstein's family ancestery is Brazilian and she is in part Hispanic.

Bet you didn't know that, did you?

As a Hispanic myself

My family's Cuban, Both Ms. Goldstein and I welcome you to the Hispanic club.

I find your attitude a bit offensive

Feel free to report me to La Raza.

 

[Jayson1]

What's weird in all this talk is Worf the a ultimate manly man type being a Klingon warrior who fights with swords and thinks human women are to fragile to have sex with is basically the but of many jokes on the show. He gets his ass kicked all the time and more times than not he is their to have his, lets shoot first, idea shot down as wrong. The whole show is built around the idea that kindness is a strength and you deal with your problems by talking about them and being willing to talk with your enemy. Plus science is seen as a good thing. Within the context of the universe the whole caregiver thing as bad seems weird. It feels like it's a hair thins leap to saying all the men are soy boys because they aren't being all macho and using kick ass guns and whatnot. Well except Riker. He was all pure traditional man.

Jason