Was TNG less progressive than TOS?

[Tosk]

The problem arises when all your female main characters are characterized that way.

Okay, but why is it a problem if two females characters are sweet and gentle and care about other people professionally?

"Stereotypes"...so what? Do we try to avoid stereotypes by making sure that fifty percent of the female characters be overtly aggressive and hard to get along with? (And if so, how come Nerys copped such major shit for so many years? )

If Beverly was a hairdresser and Deanna was a florist I could see the problem, but they are the chief medical officer of the ship and a mental health counselor. Skilled professionals in their chosen fields. And it's not their fault that the head of security/33% of the female cast took a header into some tar and ruined the ratio.

 

[Orphalesion]

That aspect (though, while I haven't seen The Golden Girls, expectations and standards are different for comedy) is a disappointment, a shortcoming. Why that wasn't done was that the studio felt it would be too controversial and risky and with the show being more expensive and potentially/currently more of a financial success it pushed/insisted that the show not get too risky, financial success and expectations imposed a constraint. I'm not sure that even with that lack (aside from, as they were, "The Host" and "The Outcast") the show wasn't, while not super-bold, still progressive for it's time.

But excluding gay people because of reasons like that is absolutely horrible and is cowardly.

Okay, but why is it a problem if two females characters are sweet and gentle and care about other people professionally?

"Stereotypes"...so what? Do we try to avoid stereotypes by making sure that fifty percent of the female characters be overtly aggressive and hard to get along with? (And if so, how come Nerys copped such major shit for so many years? )

If Beverly was a hairdresser and Deanna was a florist I could see the problem, but they are the chief medical officer of the ship and a mental health counselor. Skilled professionals in their chosen fields. And it's not their fault that the head of security/33% of the female cast took a header into some tar and ruined the ratio.

It's not a problem to have two female characters be sweet and gentle and work in fields were they primarily take care of other. And just including a woman who's aggressive and abrasive is not an answer to that. Just portraying a wider variety of women.
Look up what Lauren Faust writes about portraying a wide variety of female protagonists.
(also sorry English is not my native tongue, so I don't quite understand what you are saying about Kira...)

It's just a problem when ALL female main characters are portrayed that way. Which they were after Yar was gone. Also Yar wasn't exactly overly aggressive or abrasive.
And hey, they could have replaced Yar with a female pilot, security or chief engineer in season 2, but they didn't.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-the-next-generation-marina-sirtis-fired-denise-crosby/

This is my biggest problem with what happened with the women on TNG. 3 women on the main cast were feared to be 'too many'. And if Crosby hadn't quit, Sirtis would've been fired.

 

[Lt.Smokey]

Yes, it was less progressive, but I still like it better. As another poster mentioned, it was a product of the Reagan era, where things were a little more buttoned up compared to the 60's, you had the moral majority making a lot of noise, etc. No question, TNG could have gone in a bolder direction, but they chose to play it a little safer. Again, I don't condemn them for it, but I believe the answer to the OP's question is yes.

 

[Orphalesion]

Yes, it was less progressive, but I still like it better.

Oh, I still like it better as well. This isn't a question of the quality of the show, just about how "brave" it was in challenging the, as you put it moral majority.
Of the Star Trek shows TNG is my second favorite, after DS9.

 

[Lt.Smokey]

Oh, I still like it better as well. This isn't a question of the quality of the show, just about how "brave" it was in challenging the, as you put it moral majority.
Of the Star Trek shows TNG is my second favorite, after DS9.

Yep, same here.

 

[Qonundrum]

https://books.google.com.au/books/a...=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130319144429.htm

https://www.researchgate.net/public...regation_in_the_Market_for_Managerial_Workers

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01053/full

https://www.springerprofessional.de/en/evolutionary-psychology-in-the-business-sciences/3057088

Interesting reads (thanks!), which also made me think of the MBTI - it shows, at least based on participants of the test,

https://www.careerplanner.com/MB2/TypeInPopulation-Males-Females.cfm
https://personalitymax.com/personality-types/population-gender/

All these estimates show is, apart from how the world is made up of all types, a variance of interest between numerous criteria as recorded. Indeed, looking at the population total before gender breakdown, some numbers are still low to begin with. The rarity of the type in question is also fascinating. (Never mind many of us have taken tests tests and didn't get our scores recorded either.)

There is also the margin of error in the MBTI testing process; while some people get consistent results, others have a level of variance. People registering INFJ, INFP, INTJ, and INTP are and by far the smallest four demographics. (super-dee-duper emphasis added.) And plenty of males and females are in both.

 

[suarezguy]

https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-the-next-generation-marina-sirtis-fired-denise-crosby/

From that, it's interesting that from so early on the writers seem to acknowledge and regret that with Troi's telepathy she was too overpowered, too much she-would-know the antagonists' minds, but that just lead them to want to use her less, they couldn't think or to significantly & believably limit her abilities or change her role. Well they probably did to an extent shift her from diplomatic/dealing with enemies-adviser to counseling the crew which some fans dislike.

Yes, it was less progressive, but I still like it better. As another poster mentioned, it was a product of the Reagan era, where things were a little more buttoned up compared to the 60's, you had the moral majority making a lot of noise, etc. No question, TNG could have gone in a bolder direction, but they chose to play it a little safer.

And yet aside from being with the Ferengi anti-capitalist (albeit in a jokey way), it was also pretty critical of religion, militarism in individual episodes.

 

[Qonundrum]

Progressivism can be both an ideology and a movement, even a tendency, so both huge and pretty vague. I don't think either show was, on the whole, very revolutionary or challenging, but both were solidly liberal and inclusive.



I really don't agree with the ideas that some more revealing outfits reduced Troi to a sex symbol and especially that, apparently both a joke and a serious claim, that while she wore them Troi was portrayed as brainless. I think Troi was portrayed as competent, pretty much like and fitting in with the others as being the best of the best. Her occasionally, even rarely, being less knowledgeable (offhand I only remember "Disaster" where she still succeeded) is pretty balanced by Worf being overly-aggressive.





That aspect (though, while I haven't seen The Golden Girls, expectations and standards are different for comedy) is a disappointment, a shortcoming. Why that wasn't done was that the studio felt it would be too controversial and risky and with the show being more expensive and potentially/currently more of a financial success it pushed/insisted that the show not get too risky, financial success and expectations imposed a constraint. I'm not sure that even with that lack (aside from, as they were, "The Host" and "The Outcast") the show wasn't, while not super-bold, still progressive for it's time.

And comedy can make it easier to throw in controversy since it's all for ha-ha funny fun fun. Would "All in the Family" have worked as a serious drama?

From a different perspective, some of "The Host" doesn't not work. And Beverly was having a difficult time accepting the slug in another-of-the-same-sex's body before they did the gender swap. Indeed, another perspective would suggest having Beverly fall for her just like anyone else would be too easy and simple. Still can't stand that shuttle of scene of "We're losing control of the shuttle, let's get beamed off"/"Well we can't beam because my slug will dieeeee"/"Okay, it's good I'm a pilot even though I just said things are breaking up and we'd better transport but oops we can't... oh dear, shuttle going to blow up and the hull will break up before that, but as we're going out of control I can still bring her in manually" then jump cut back to everyone being safe on the ship.

"Outcast" is still a misfire on every level. And not many would be thinking of taking the attempted allusion to that of 23-years-after-Stonewall-riots.

 

[Orphalesion]

From that, it's interesting that from so early on the writers seem to acknowledge and regret that with Troi's telepathy she was too overpowered, too much she-would-know the antagonists' minds, but that just lead them to want to use her less, they couldn't think or to significantly & believably limit her abilities or change her role.

That's my biggest problem with when that comes up. They just should have just established clearer rules and limitations to Troi's mental powers. And there's a lot of other fictional works that include telepaths and manage to have compelling plots, mysteries and drama.

And comedy can make it easier to throw in controversy since it's all for ha-ha funny fun fun. Would "All in the Family" have worked as a serious drama?

I agree that comedy often has a greater leeway. But the gay relatives in Golden Girls generally weren't played for laughs (Dorothy's cross-dressing brother was, but he was heterosexual). The episode where Blanche's brother comes out as gay does not portray him or the issue as comedic. Yes there are jokes in the episode but they aren't of the "hahahaha those wacky gays!" variety.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

TNG is my favorite Trek series by FAR. But I do notice its glaring shortcomings, and yes, I do sometimes also think it was less progressive than TOS. I think, for me personally this "oh dear God this is worse than what they had in the 60s" feeling has to do with the horrible way in which female characters were written on the show (it wasn't that much better on TOS, but that's precisely the point - they didn't improve it enough). Women on TNG are either caregivers, mothers, "the female nerd" stereotype, the "sneaky vamp" stereotype or the "butch/tomboy" stereotype, or a combination of two or more of these stereotypes. It feels like as if the TNG writers had this bucket on the table where they had little cards with the stereotypes written on and whenever they wrote a female character they pulled out one or two of the stereotype cards and wrote the character accordingly.

What also makes me resent TNG's lack of progressiveness is its incredibly frustrating tendency to take one step forward and then two steps back when it comes to LGBT+ representation. They make an episode like "The Outcast" and intend for it to be a story about gay rights - and then they have a heterosexual couple tell the story. That's just not how this sort of thing should be done. You can absolutely TELL that the show had someone in charge who did NOT want for this subject to be discussed too much in ANY kind of way, progressively or not progressively. And to me as a gay man this just feels like a slap in the face from a show that's supposed to be my favorite.

Also, may I just say that Gay Me has never worn a skant in my LIFE and can we please NOT with the "men who wear skants are automatically gay" thing...?

 

[Nyotarules]

Yes TNG was less progressive than TOS when you consider the cultural reality of the times they were produced. Apart from not one main LGBT character, most of the senior crew and actors were Caucasian. Levar Burton was the only non white member of the main ensemble, at least TOS had two of those. The Captain, white, The First Officer, white, the Chief Medical Officer, white, the Security head white, the Counselor, white.
TNG could have a non white female CMO and still keep the will they, won't they romance element between Picard and Crusher, considering interracial relationships were not seen that often on 1980's T.V, showing that in the 24th century such couples would be as normal as breathing would have been progressive. I would have made the Wesley character a mixed race girl with the genius level stuff still attached.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Also, may I just say that Gay Me has never worn a skant in my LIFE and can we please NOT with the "men who wear skants are automatically gay" thing...?

Never said I approved. Just point out what the idea may have been, even though as I said before dress style shouldn’t matter in regards to orientation. Its silly.

 

[Tenacity]

Uh if you notice, I say that a Doctor and a Mental Health worker are important roles, just that it was awkward that all remaining female characters were in the medicine divisions while none of the male characters were in that divisions.

As I point out previously, all the other Trek series had male doctors.

If there's something off or wrong about being a doctor, Star Trek applies it to both genders.

Levar Burton was the only non white member of the main ensemble,

Micheal Dorn,

the Security head white,

Worf.

 

[Mudd]

In some ways, yes.

 

[Tenacity]

If Beverly was a hairdresser

As opposed to a tap dancer? And when we do see a hair dresser they are male.

And hey, they could have replaced Yar with a female pilot, security or chief engineer in season 2, but they didn't.

Yar isn't replaced with any new character, male or female, an exist chacter is simply moved. When Crosby left the main cast just got smaller.

. There was a female ship's chief engineer in the first season. And plenty of female "pilots" were seen at the helm over the course of the series, Ro was seen there twice.

They make an episode like "The Outcast" and intend for it to be a story about gay rights

Which it wasn't, althought the episode did have important things to say about gender identity and a society that insists on uniformity.

 

[Nightdiamond]

TOS had a quite a few limitations and embarrassing spots. But in a strange way, it could be argued that TNG was more reluctant to take risks than TOS did.

When it became popular and a massive mainstream hit, it had to worry about sponsors, fan backlash on certain ideas, and producers and studios looking over their shoulders. At least, that's the sense you get.

There was some criticism for the ending of The Host where Beverly rejects Odan at the end. I know, she has a right to her choices without being accused of a being homophobic. Which she wasn't.

But the criticism was that it was the "normal" thing to do, because there was no way they were going to have Beverly in a relationship with another woman. Or even have her consider it. In the early 90's in a popular mainstream show.

It was like the show still relied on tropes and stereotypes without realizing how obvious it was.

Like Troi was a competent, ranking professional, a psychologist, but she still wore a plunging outfit that revealed a lot of her figure. She was beautiful, maybe it worked. But it also just looked too obvious whenever you watch some of the episodes.

Geordi was the tech geek who was awkward with women, but Burton suggested it was based on stereotypes and discomfort with his character's sexuality.

You get a sense that because the show "inherited" the idea that all our social ills have been solved, it sidestepped concepts without ever showing them, like same sex relationships.

Or even acknowledging why Starfleet seems so mono cultural -why is it so human-centric when it is 150 member league?

I don't think TNG lost its roots exactly, it just got a little comfortable . And also cautious because it was successful.

 

[Tosk]

As opposed to a tap dancer?

I was arguing against the point that making the doctor a female was somehow playing into old stereotypes. A woman being a hairdresser is an old stereotype, hence my example. The other part of my point was that the jobs Crusher and Troi had were crucial to ship operations. While getting a haircut might seem essential to some/many, I think most people would rather have access to a doctor than a hairdresser if it was a strict one-or-the-other situation.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Yes TNG was less progressive than TOS when you consider the cultural reality of the times they were produced. Apart from not one main LGBT character, most of the senior crew and actors were Caucasian. Levar Burton was the only non white member of the main ensemble, at least TOS had two of those. The Captain, white, The First Officer, white, the Chief Medical Officer, white, the Security head white, the Counselor, white.
TNG could have a non white female CMO and still keep the will they won't they romance element between Picard and Crusher, considering interracial relationships were not seen that often on 1980's T.V, showing that in the 24th century such couples would be as normal as breathing would have been progressive. I would have made the Wesley character a mixed race girl with the genius level stuff still attached.

Miles O'brien married Keiko, that was a mixed race couple. They were not the main characters but one of the few or only recurrence no ones.
The story with Picard and Guinan would be interracial, we were never really sure what their relationship was. Geordie dates various races of women, or tries to at any rate. I thought for the time period, the show did fine.
Can we look back at stuff and think it was wrong, certainly, but we have to move outside of our own contexts and view the information from the prior time period.
We can know history, historical people cannot know the future.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

For its time, TNG wasn't progressive at all.

TOS wasn't all that progressive either, for its time.

Given how far network programming had come in the 20 years since TOS, I'd say that on balance TNG was more behind the curve than TOS was.