Was Keiko always a Pah Wraith?

[Michael]

I've laid out the episodes where I think you see the most of this breakdown occurring. I can also show you examples of them being normal and understanding together, and Keiko in generally being a great person. But you're definitely coming off as though this topic, and language used, is black and white and should never be approached.

It's a bit ironic that you think I am “black and white” about it, when it's you who's saying “they don't belong to each other” because of one or two episodes where she's unhappy with the situation even though “Miles is walking on eggshells”. Seems to me like it's actually you who's painting an awful picture of her and their marriage, all based on a handful of scenes.

And as someone that truly doesn't see race and sex in society or in a role on TV, if I want to call a woman I think talks down to her husband, Karen, I will. Context is king, and I've seen "Karen" videos starring women of Asian decent,not just the white ladies, and it's not always against someone of color, either. It's a more ambiguous term than you want it to be.

You can call her what you want. I'm just pointing out the meaning that term is carrying. It's problematic because it means also other things than what you want it to convey. It's a bit rich using the term and then complaining about other people injecting race into the discussion.

 

[BoTWoT]

It's a bit rich using the term and then complaining about other people injecting race into the discussion.

I'll make sure in the future I'm Vulcan kinda clinical in my wording on this board.

It's a bit ironic that you think I am “black and white” about it, when it's you who's saying “they don't belong to each other” because of one or two episodes where she's unhappy with the situation even though “Miles is walking on eggshells”. Seems to me like it's actually you who's painting an awful picture of her and their marriage, all based on a handful of scenes.

The difference between these two things. I'm stating an opinion about a TV show, and if what I see is an awful picture, yes, that's how I'm going to paint it. So far you've brought up that some people that think Keiko sucks don't know what a relationship, are mysogynistic, and that it's our way of thinking that's the problem. You're attacking the mess anger, not the message. I've many times in this thread agreed and given Keiko credit where credit is due. You just seem to be talking down on people, without just looking at the question and answering it in universe. You really seem to be fighting about this being a topic that's approachable without 'insert bait-filled buzz words' being the reason someone believes it. By God, can we just argue about a really stupid topic, that I didn't post originally to be just about 'HATE ON KEIKO, AND THIS IS WHY!' Until those ready to raise a sword in defense of a character started devolving it into 'KEIKO HATES MILES', which I agree with with some caveats, but was not the original intentions with the question. So go ahead an keep making it about more than the question itself...

 

[fireproof78]

I think the biggest issue is I don't see it the same way. Now, I have not watched those episodes as recently as others, but never did Keiko and Miles strike me as "they shouldn't be together." Now, I have a much different view on relationships than many so the whole "tip-toeing on eggshells" was never the impression I got.

Like I said, the whole Pah-Wraith thing was something that never occurred to me because honestly it didn't seem like it would serve their interests.

By God, can we just argue about a really stupid topic,

Because it was presented as serious, or without enough context to take it as such. Sorry, danger of text based interactions.

 

[BoTWoT]

Because it was presented as serious, or without enough context to take it as such. Sorry, danger of text based interactions.

You can answer it seriously in-universe, and everything you've posted so far has been just fine. You've stated opinions, but quite a few others seem to spend more time implying that if you believe anything different, there's something wrong with you, and there must be some more nefarious reason for believing this. If you think Keiko/Miles are a great couple, that's fine, there are examples of them being just that. And the further you get into the run, the more this becomes a thing, which is why it seems like "The Assignment" is a turning point, and I personally, have no more issues with Keiko after it. So, if Ben can be "The Sisko", it doesn't seem all that far fetched for their to be "The Keiko".

 

[Michael]

I'll make sure in the future I'm Vulcan kinda clinical in my wording on this board.

Thank you.

The difference between these two things. I'm stating an opinion about a TV show, and if what I see is an awful picture, yes, that's how I'm going to paint it. So far you've brought up that some people that think Keiko sucks don't know what a relationship, are mysogynistic, and that it's our way of thinking that's the problem. You're attacking the mess anger, not the message.

Well, you are not wrong, you are talking about a television marriage, and I'm talking about what people's opinion about said marriage tells me about them. Not all of them, mind you, which I specifically pointed out in my first post in this thread. But some of them. I'm not trying to talk about you specifically or any specific person in this thread. I'm talking about a general trend I am and have been perceiving for a long time in online discussions about Keiko.

I'm well aware your original post wasn't specifically about “Keiko sucks”, which is why I wasn't replying to you in my first post in this thread, but to another poster perceiving a similar trend of people opining about Keiko.

Keiko might be a fictional character, but subjects like gender relations, gender stereotypes, sexism, misogyny and feminism are very real and also dear to me personally. The way media portraits women, relationships, marriages, gender roles etc. and the way we as an audience perceive them and talk about them are real and important to me, because they do tend to inform how we as a society act on them in our relationships with others. And sorry not sorry, but the Keiko/Miles relationship just brings up all these kind of topics, whether you intended them to be brought up or not.

Look, this is a discussion board. People start a thread with a topic and then it's like a room where people are taking that topic and talk about it. You can't steer where a discussion goes or how people are going to talk about it. I know it might be frustrating, but that's just how online discussions work, I'm afraid.

You just seem to be talking down on people …

Well, I'm genuinely sorry that that's how you perceive me. I respect you and your opinion and as I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with not liking Keiko. I didn't want to talk about you specifically, but a general “you”.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Also, your wife calling Keiko a “Karen” is a little offensive, wouldn't you say? It's a term used for white women abusing their privilege, often to harm people of color. So I'm not sure how that would apply here even remotely.

I don't think it does apply, even in a generalized sense of abusing privilege.

 

[fireproof78]

You can answer it seriously in-universe, and everything you've posted so far has been just fine. You've stated opinions, but quite a few others seem to spend more time implying that if you believe anything different, there's something wrong with you, and there must be some more nefarious reason for believing this. If you think Keiko/Miles are a great couple, that's fine, there are examples of them being just that. And the further you get into the run, the more this becomes a thing, which is why it seems like "The Assignment" is a turning point, and I personally, have no more issues with Keiko after it. So, if Ben can be "The Sisko", it doesn't seem all that far fetched for their to be "The Keiko".

The larger thing is my question of for how long and how does that serve the Pah-Wraiths mission? If their goal is to wreak havoc on the Prophets how does Keiko support that?

 

[Kor]

I was going to say that she wasn't "always" a Pah Wraith, because in the TNG era there was no evidence of Pah Wraiths in Federation space. But if the prophets were able to send one of their own all the way to Earth and control Sarah Sisko, maybe the Pah Wraiths were able to do similar with Keiko.

Kor

 

[BoTWoT]

The larger thing is my question of for how long and how does that serve the Pah-Wraiths mission? If their goal is to wreak havoc on the Prophets how does Keiko support that?

"In The Hands of The Prophets" would be one example of Pah Wraiths possibly using Keiko for something other than "The Assignment", pit her against Kai Winn and teaching Creation in school.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If, by possibly, you mean with 0% probability, then sure.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm not exactly a huge Keiko fan either, but it's extremely unlikely that she's a Pah Wraith.

They wouldn't have taken her over (in "The Assignment") if she already was one, amirite?

 

[Orphalesion]

I'm not exactly a huge Keiko fan either, but it's extremely unlikely that she's a Pah Wraith.

They wouldn't have taken her over (in "The Assignment") if she already was one, amirite?

Plus, as always, the biggest problem with "theories" like this.... if Keiko had been a Ptah Wrath then this never factored into anything, and was not even hinted at to the audience.

 

[Kor]

Well, we never got any foreshadowing about Bashir's genetic enhancements, or the real Bashir being in a Jem'Hadar prison for who-knows-how-long. Those things just popped up out of the blue.

Kor

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But those things made SENSE. They had story potential. This doesn't.

 

[BoTWoT]

They wouldn't have taken her over (in "The Assignment") if she already was one, amirite?

You could say the same about Ben, until the Prophets gave him his visions. Doesn't mean he wasn't always a Prophet, and just didn't know. I find it also extremely unlikely, but there are some instances that do make sense, without any backstory required to be foreshadowed.

 

[at Quark's]

Well, I'm not particularly fond of Keiko, but the possibility of this seems extremely remote. It also doesn't seem the 'style' of beings like the pah-wraith and the prophets. They may attempt to guide or influence history over long periods of time, but when they interfere directly, they do so in relatively short bursts, no longer than necessary to reach a specific goal. Sarah was only in Joseph's life for 2 years or so, just long enough to conceive and give birth to Sisko. Very goal-oriented. The possessed Dukat also gets on with his mission, wasting no more time than needed to convince Winn. Keiko keeps hanging around Miles for what, 10 years or so? seemingly without working towards a specific goal.

Also, I'm not sure they can assume human form on their own. Posession of humans who had a life before is what they usually do. So in that case there still needs to be a 'real' Keiko.underneath.

 

[BoTWoT]

Well, I'm not particularly fond of Keiko, but the possibility of this seems extremely remote. It also doesn't seem the 'style' of beings like the pah-wraith and the prophets. They may attempt to guide or influence history over long periods of time, but when they interfere directly, they do so in relatively short bursts, no longer than necessary to reach a specific goal. Sarah was only in Joseph's life for 2 years or so, just long enough to conceive and give birth to Sisko. Very goal-oriented. The possessed Dukat also gets on with his mission, wasting no more time than needed to convince Winn. Keiko keeps hanging around Miles for what, 10 years or so? seemingly without working towards a specific goal.

Also, I'm not sure they can assume human form on their own. Posession of humans who had a life before is what they usually do. So in that case there still needs to be a 'real' Keiko.underneath.

That's a fun and well thought out reason, but I only mean "She's a Pah-Wraith" in and as much as
"Sisko is a Prophet" before he received visions.

 

[fireproof78]

"In The Hands of The Prophets" would be one example of Pah Wraiths possibly using Keiko for something other than "The Assignment", pit her against Kai Winn and teaching Creation in school.

But, again, that seems counter to their overall goals. Merely diminishing the Prophets was not enough. The Pah-Wraiths want to do battle with them. Even as a long game, for nonlinear beings, Keiko doesn't offer much. Unless O'Brien was the original target and they missed.

 

[at Quark's]

But, again, that seems counter to their overall goals. Merely diminishing the Prophets was not enough. The Pah-Wraiths want to do battle with them. Even as a long game, for nonlinear beings, Keiko doesn't offer much. Unless O'Brien was the original target and they missed.

Well, Miles is the everyman on the show. Perhaps the Pah-Wraiths hoped to make everyone suffer by targeting him.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, Miles is the everyman on the show. Perhaps the Pah-Wraiths hoped to make everyone suffer by targeting him.

Well, as a plan, it seems dramatically inefficient. Unless the Pah-Wraiths are feeding on O'Brien's suffering.