Why would Pah Wraith Keiko oppose Vedek/Kai Winn? Given the latter's faith-poisoning hypocrisy, the wraiths would be more likely to encourage Winn.
Was Keiko always a Pah Wraith?
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Why would Pah Wraith Keiko oppose Vedek/Kai Winn? Given the latter's faith-poisoning hypocrisy, the wraiths would be more likely to encourage Winn.
We're talking specifically about Season 1's "In The Hands Of The Prophets" where she is opposing Vedek Winn for arguing for the prophets. The Pah Wraiths at that point would probably want that stopped.
^ This. A supposed Ptah Wraith Keiko might even have revealed herself to Winn, claiming she was a prophet in disguise in order to manipulate her, especially after Winn became Kai.
FWIW, I never thought my dislike of Wesley or Neelix was inexplicable. 
I never especially had issues with Bashir or Keiko though. They both have their moments of being annoying, but I've never encountered a person who isn't annoying.
Also, I don't think it's reasonable to extrapolate the times we see O'Brien and Keiko interacting to try to get a full view of their marriage, especially considering that we weren't likely to see them as a couple on an ordinary day.
I never especially had issues with Bashir or Keiko though. They both have their moments of being annoying, but I've never encountered a person who isn't annoying.
Also, I don't think it's reasonable to extrapolate the times we see O'Brien and Keiko interacting to try to get a full view of their marriage, especially considering that we weren't likely to see them as a couple on an ordinary day.
Every character mentioned have some lows and high moments. I don't completely hate Keiko, I just don't think she belongs with Miles, based on what screentime we do get of them, but as you point on, maybe every other day offscreen is a great day! Which is what makes me question, in universe, what her motivations might be, and being a Pah Wraith is a close an explanation I can think of. This was only meant to be a thought exercise. No one should take this too seriously. And it is ok to not like a character in shows you love. No one is required to like every character, and as long as you're not attacking the actor or being overly negative about it, it's totally ok to explore that with others.
Well, my point wasn't exactly that theirs is the happiest marriage I've ever seen on television, but that it was one of the most realistic ones. And that's on account of them having a difference of opinion every once in a while about important stuff in their lives. You yourself are saying that you and your wife fight about every 3 to 5 years. What makes you think the few moments of them arguing on the show aren't actually those kind of rare arguments? I don't know, I just think it's odd to extrapolate from the handful of moments we actually do see them clashing that their whole marriage is somehow not right.
By the way, I never said you were calling her a bitch, now did I? I'm paraphrasing what many people before you have said about her here in the 10+ years I've been following these kind of discussions here. Believe me, this has come up a couple of times.
Also, your wife calling Keiko a “Karen” is a little offensive, wouldn't you say? It's a term used for white women abusing their privilege, often to harm people of color. So I'm not sure how that would apply here even remotely.
But then again, you'll probably claim this was satire and not meant to be taken seriously in a moment.God forbid a wife being stern and unfeeling from time to time. I'm not even sure what moments from the show you are referring to with that, but why would that make her so terribly unlikable as a character or a wife?
Yeah, I never would have guessed either before joining this board. It comes up every now and then.
Just remember, you brought race into the conversation. I see it as any woman using privilege to talk down to anyone, which Keiko does quite often to Miles. It's only racial, if you want to make it about race. That's definitely not satire, it's just the situation.Also, your wife calling Keiko a “Karen” is a little offensive, wouldn't you say? It's a term used for white women abusing their privilege, often to harm people of color. So I'm not sure how that would apply here even remotely.
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See:Fascination,Data's Day, and every episode where Nyres is carrying their child. Miles literally goes out of his way to please his wife. Walks on eggshells around her, and she still tells him what to do every step of the way.
I've tried to talk about this tastefully, and for that matter the original question only has a little to do with this, and then others really wanted to drag race and gender into this. I'm going to be blashphemous and say:
It's ok to not like every character on every show you like. Even those of different races or genders. It's not always some anti-woman, racial, or misogynistic thing.
Indeed. It amazes just how generalized people's comments and observations around a character can be based upon occasional moments of unfriendliness. My wife and I certainly are not always the most amiable towards each other, especially during stressful projects. But, that's not the only aspect of the relationship nor does it define us either. Relationships not only have ups and downs, but they have seasons were people struggle through for a while.
I get not liking a character but completely going "That relationship is all wrong and she must be an alien!" SMH.
I get not liking a character but completely going "That relationship is all wrong and she must be an alien!" SMH.
I was trying to look for an in-universe explanation for why but, I guess I'll just accept that either A.)Keiko sucks or B.)She great the rest of the time offscreen and we just don't see it.
Are there examples of her being awesome, too? YES! But a few of you folks would rather take this super seriously, and like it's some kind of attack on a character, when it should just be an exploration. A fun satirical one at that. But it's 2021, so everything must devolve into black and white what's right and wrong with none of the grey area Trek tried to capture for the last 55 years fight.
"Alexa, remind me to never post a question that hasn't been talked to death again."
Well, you said your wife was calling her “Karen”. I'm sorry you or she doesn't seem to know what the term actually means, but the insertion of it brought the subject into the discussion, whether you planned for it or not. Look, I'm not calling you or your wife a racist or anything, just pointing out that calling Keiko a “Karen” is way off.
I think if you don't see the inherent problem in that kind of statement then I'm afraid we might not come to an understanding on this. Please tell me, what is the problem with a woman (or anyone for that matter) telling their partner how they would like something instead of just accepting what the other partner does?
Of course it's okay to not like Keiko. I'm not sure why you are trying to twist what I'm saying. Keiko could be your least favorite character in the history of television for all I care. It's just that point that's always coming up that she's somehow mistreating Miles, when all she does is completely normal, healthy and acceptable behavior in a marriage between adults. I wasn't even directing my original post at you, just commenting on the fact that whenever the topic of Keiko/Miles comes up, there are usually people here having a problem with her seemingly based on weird understandings of relationships.
Or C). people are complicated and don't require an alien presence to explain it. That's more my point. There is not black and white from my point of view, nor do I demand liking the character. I just never saw the issue with the relationship as others in this thread have, as I saw it largely being a fairly "realistic" portrayal of a relationship where one partner has put aside their interests and struggles at times with that choice.
As I often discover here satire does not come across in text very well. What works well in speech and in person communication is often lost because of tone, inflection, facial expression etc.
I would be interested in you pointing to anyone in this thread who has actually been saying what your strawman is arguing here.
I agree, Keiko's qualifications to teach really should have been addressed explicitly in "A Man Alone." TNG and DS9 shows were, AFAIK, sketchy about Keiko's occupational background. However, she was a professor, I suppose a professor of botany, and this was presumably a status she had obtained before being assigned to the Ent-D in TNG. From "The Wire" [http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/442.htm]:
BASHIR: I'm a doctor, not a botanist. Did you ask Professor O'Brien?
DAX: Keiko's at a hydroponics conference on Rigel Four. She won't be back for a week.
DAX: Keiko's at a hydroponics conference on Rigel Four. She won't be back for a week.
From "Business as Usual" [http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/516.htm]:
JAKE: When is Professor O'Brien due back from Bajor?
O'BRIEN: I don't know. A week, maybe two. However long it takes to get that blight under control.
O'BRIEN: I don't know. A week, maybe two. However long it takes to get that blight under control.
A professor is a teacher at a college or university, so it follows that Keiko would have been expected to have had qualifications and at least some experience teaching, at that level. Of course that itself doesn't mean that she possessed qualifications to teach primary school, especially in a multicultural mode. But to say that all she had to do was declare herself to be a teacher generally is false. She already possessed the necessary qualifications to be a teacher, just at the university level.
I've laid out the episodes where I think you see the most of this breakdown occurring. I can also show you examples of them being normal and understanding together, and Keiko in generally being a great person. But you're definitely coming off as though this topic, and language used, is black and white and should never be approached. And as someone that truly doesn't see race and sex in society or in a role on TV, if I want to call a woman I think talks down to her husband, Karen, I will. Context is king, and I've seen "Karen" videos starring women of Asian decent,not just the white ladies, and it's not always against someone of color, either. It's a more ambiguous term than you want it to be.
I never understood why it would have been so impossible to have an arboretum on DS9. It could have studied Bajoran plants (as well as plants they brought in form the other side of the Wormhole), it owuld have served as a recreational spot for the population of the station etc. etc. etc.
Yet each time the idea even came up, it was instantly dismissed as "busy work" by both Keiko and Miles. And instead they claimed that Keiko, somehow, has to go to Bajor to study plants (she sure seemed happy doing botanist things on the Enterprise...) leading to all that conflict about her being gone and him being alone on the station and all that, which I think is what soured many people towards Keiko.
When it comes down to it, Keiko and Miles both aren't very good at communicating, or even allowing, their emotions.
Yet each time the idea even came up, it was instantly dismissed as "busy work" by both Keiko and Miles. And instead they claimed that Keiko, somehow, has to go to Bajor to study plants (she sure seemed happy doing botanist things on the Enterprise...) leading to all that conflict about her being gone and him being alone on the station and all that, which I think is what soured many people towards Keiko.
When it comes down to it, Keiko and Miles both aren't very good at communicating, or even allowing, their emotions.
Indeed. This is the biggest thing I see with their relationship is that neither expected it to go out it did and they struggled to communicate what they needed to their partners. Which is pretty common in most relationships I have seen in real life.
I think that sums up their relationship pretty well.
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