Warpath Discussion Thread (major, major spoilers)

[David Mack]

^ Now, now, Keith, don't beat yourself over the head.

There are plenty of us willing to do that for you . . .

 

[KRAD]

^ That's soooooooooo comforting....

 

[JeremyW]

David Mack said:

Anyway, I know Jamin said in the vision that they would need allies to defeat the Ascendants. I was thinking perhaps that would be ... an Odo-controlled Dominion.

And for being the first person I know of to raise the scenario that I was thinking of when I wrote the scene, I give you . . . a cookie.

Hmmm....I thought that this was always a given. One of those things that just clicked at the last end of "Olympus Descending"...the Dominion and Bajor having a common enemy: The Ascendants. But, kudos to Trent for pointing it out....

Author cookies are rare and golden. Treasure them.

As of "Second Skin"...I'm watching it right now....kind of neat to watch this episode again. I can't wait to see exactly how a 'nice' woman like Iliana went all Jason Bourne on everybody.

 

[JD]

So let me see if I've got this straight, The Intendant was the one who first brainwashed Taran'atar, and Iliana found out and got control. Then Iliana had him blow up Sidau and kidnapped Ke Hovath for the Orb fragment. She then allowed the Intendant to bring Big T to the MU, and then with his and L'Haan's help killed her and took her place.

 

[JeremyW]

^ Close, but no. This has been what we've been discussing for some time now. It's the missing piece to the entire puzzle IMO. Iliana Ghemor (OUR Universe) used Grennokar Prison as her base to manipulate and break Jem'Hadar programming and condition them to serve HER. After several failed attempts, she managed to manipulate Taran'atar. Taran'atar was then able to send Iliana all sorts of information, and among that, the story of Sidau village AND the Mirror Universe. I'd assert that once Iliana learned of the MU, she learned of the untapped potential the Alliance could be for her, but knew that she couldn't control it easily. It just so happened that since she is now the female Jason Bourne looking like Kira Nerys, taking the Intendant's place would be the first step in conquering anything and everyone in her way. It was just 'HOW' to do it. There enters Taran'atar, and somehow making the Intendant believe that she was controlling him the entire time while Iliana really was the one calling the shots. It's that last link of the puzzle...something I'd assert we'll see in "Fearful Symmetry". And to be honest, I can't think of a guess as to how Iliana did it, but I'm open to being enlightened....

There are some points though that you are pretty accurate on:

Iliana Ghemor was the one responsible, or responsible for putting those who committed the act in place, for the destruction of Sidau Village

Iliana Ghemor killed Ke Hovath and acquired the bracelet from him.

Intendant Kira killed HER Ke Hovath and acquired the technology needed to cross the Multiverse.

Intendant Kira believed Iliana was CAPTAIN Kira, and discounted her completely. Only when Iliana slit her throat did she realize she WAS. DEAD....wrong that is.

Marco's has made it clear that Taran'atar's inner struggle will be made vividly clear in 'Fearful Symmetry', although some of us I'd assert are putting the pieces together ourselves. Mirror Iliana's motives and agenda will be made clear in the next book as well. 11 more months to go.......

 

[David Mack]

^ Everyone listen to Jeremy, he's on a roll....

 

[JD]

So which Iliana was with the Defiant crew, the MU version?

 

[the_wildcard]

Hahaha man I have to re-read the book again. All the details are a blur to me.

See David what your great book and discussion have done?!

lol...

By the way, to all who just skipped to this page without reading the previous pages.....go to page 11....the posts in there are worthy of being a sticky.

 

[David Mack]

Ens. Brodsky said:
So which Iliana was with the Defiant crew, the MU version?

Yup.

As for why . . . that'll be in Fearful Symmetry. Maybe.

 

[Christopher]

the_wildcard said:
By the way, to all who just skipped to this page without reading the previous pages.....go to page 11....the posts in there are worthy of being a sticky.

Err, people with different display settings (different number of posts per page) get different page numbering. For me, the current page is only 10.

 

[Trek]

Christopher said:

the_wildcard said:
By the way, to all who just skipped to this page without reading the previous pages.....go to page 11....the posts in there are worthy of being a sticky.

Err, people with different display settings (different number of posts per page) get different page numbering. For me, the current page is only 10.

And i'm only on page six!

Finished reading this on Monday and loved it. I got a little confused at the end though (I too thought that the Illiana that helped Vaughn was the RU one and the one that Killed the Intendent was the MU one)

 

[JeremyW]

^ Trek, that's the point. And if you watch "Second Skin", you'll realize WHY you're meant to question it. The Iliana who left the recording for herself is not the peaceful, kind, and quiet woman that Dave has written her out to be. Dukat betrayed the operation, and that's when Iliana went all JB on everybody and everything.

So, here's what I am going to take on now as a result of this conversation: I'm going to go find a copy of "Abyss" and read it again...the mention of the MU Sindorin just didn't settle with me in this book, which has me wonder if there were any clues left as early as "Abyss" that would further enlighten this conversation.

And secondly, I'm going to create a "Warpath FAQ" (much like the wonderfully thorough Trek Lit FAQ) so we can all bask in these answers together. Until then, I request one thing: can we add to the Trek Lit FAQ this question:

From "Warpath":

Which Iliana did Vaughn and Prynn meet at the end of the book? Ours, or the MU's?

Answer: Vaughn and Prynn met the Mirror Iliana Ghemor, who explained to them that Taran'atar was not working with the Intendant, but in fact, OUR Iliana Ghemor, the one we heard about in "Second Skin". You're made to believe otherwise because we all know the reputation of the MU's Cardassians towards the Terrans, and the Iliana Ghemor we saw in the recording in "Second Skin" is not the same one who would butcher people unless she had no other choice. Well, that was until her operation betrayed by OUR Gul Dukat.

So why would the MU Iliana help Vaughn and Prynn?

Answer: We have to wait for "Fearful Symmetry" to understand the MU Iliana's motives, agenda and actions. Although be prepared for the unexpected, unforseen and unbelievable. Nothing is what it appears to be.

So I lied...I ask for two questions to be put up in the Trek Lit FAQ...I'll add these to my own. Expect the "Official Warpath FAQ" to be created by the end of next week.

 

[Trek]

^ I already knew that it was in fact the other way around(RU Illiana taking the Intendant's place) from reading the rest of the thread. I was just noting that I was also caught out when I read it for the first time.

 

[Rosalind]

^^ if we put them in the FAQ, we probably should put them in spoiler codes.

 

[JD]

David Mack said:

Ens. Brodsky said:
So which Iliana was with the Defiant crew, the MU version?

Yup.

As for why . . . that'll be in Fearful Symmetry. Maybe.

Ok, that explains why "our Iliana" was a Cardassian and the "MU Iliana" was a Bajoran, it's because I had them reversed.

 

[Sxottlan]

One thing I forgot to mention that I wanted to was how much I enjoyed seeing anything of what was going on in the outskirts of the collapsed Cardassian Union. This is one of the elements of the DS9R that I feel has been way under-developed. I've always envisioned it like the Wild West out there where anything goes and I'm glad the story went in that general direction.

Trent Roman said:
When I saw that we were heading for a Cardassian prison, I told myself: “Well, I guess this means we’ll be seeing Tom Riker, Sito Jaxa, or both.”

Interesting. I didn't think that at all although I can see how one would. Being so long after the Cardassians abandoned it though, anyone still stuck in a cell would be vole-food by now.

Dense as I am, it actually took me a while to figure out that some of the regulars were participating in the vision.

I think that was always at the back of my mind recalling Far Beyond the Stars, but I didn't see it as anything really important, unless it's foreshadowing that the whole crew dies horribly some day.

Help? Also, was the name of the fortress in reference to something else? Couldn’t unscramble that one either…

Terok Nor.

I was actually surprised, given the hints we’ve been seeing in the fiction about a connection between the Prophets, Bajor and the Hebitian culture on Cardassia, that there would no Cardassians in Kira’s wormhole visions when we saw the different paths.

Hmm. I'm not recalling the Hebitian Connection. Where was it?

Now that I'm thinking about it, was that Ohalu-follower and her hybrid child going to come back? It seemed like perfect fodder for storytelling, but hasn't been seen since Avatar. I can't imagine she's been forgotten.

Anyway, I know Jamin said in the vision that they would need allies to defeat the Ascendants. I was thinking perhaps that would be the Cardassians (though they are a rather third-rate power this soon after the war), or perhaps an Odo-controlled Dominion.

I always figured the Dominion and the Federation would have to team up, especially after the events of Olympus Descending.

The commando raid scene on Harkoum just didn’t do it for me. Sorry; but I found myself glazing over paragraphs as Vaughn’s team was moving in. Perhaps I just don’t have a good appreciate of the tactics therein, but I found I didn’t really care for what was happening because I didn’t know who these characters were. There were several of them, but other than a few mentions of species, gender and specialization, nothing much to distinguish one from the other.

I agree to a point. Mundane procedure in tactical situations sometimes can't be avoided and with new characters, it can spell trouble. Perhaps this could be remedied in the future by focusing on a particular elite squad on the station ala that platoon on the Gorkon?

Illiana Ghemor. Wow, what an obscure reference. Had to look her up. Sure addresses the question of why she looked like Kira, but what made you guys think of her in the first place?

I don't even remember what the episode said happened to her. I thought she was dead.

 

[mug]

sxottlan said:

I was actually surprised, given the hints we’ve been seeing in the fiction about a connection between the Prophets, Bajor and the Hebitian culture on Cardassia, that there would no Cardassians in Kira’s wormhole visions when we saw the different paths.

Hmm. I'm not recalling the Hebitian Connection. Where was it?

In one of the Mission: Gamma books (This Gray Spirit?) a jevonite statue was found at B'Hala. It was given to Kasidy, who gave it to Yevir, who had it in the room when he met with Mika and her half-Cardassian child.

Illiana Ghemor. Wow, what an obscure reference. Had to look her up. Sure addresses the question of why she looked like Kira, but what made you guys think of her in the first place?

I don't even remember what the episode said happened to her. I thought she was dead.

IIRC, they left it very open-ended.

 

[Trent Roman]

mug said:
In one of the Mission: Gamma books (This Gray Spirit?) a jevonite statue was found at B'Hala. It was given to Kasidy, who gave it to Yevir, who had it in the room when he met with Mika and her half-Cardassian child.

But more to the point, the statuette depicted a Bajoran/Cardassian hybrid, like Ziyal. A number of books now have implied thematic and iconographic similarities between the Hebitian and Bajoran religions, and one of the stories in Prophecy and Change alledgedly features an ancient Cardassian artifact that serves as a doorway into the Celestial Temple. The Iconian gatekeeper from the Gateways series also said there were no gates in the vicinity of planets protected by the Prophets, such as Bajor (but Cardassia was also in the blanked out zone). Little things here and there, but I think they add up.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JD]

mug said:

sxottlan said:
I don't even remember what the episode said happened to her. I thought she was dead.

IIRC, they left it very open-ended.

i just watched the episode, Second Skin, on Tuesday, and in the end Iliana's father asked Kira what she thought happened to her, and Kira said she didn't know. So, yeah they left it very open ended, and I am now very glad they did. :thumbsup:

 

[Shar]

KRAD said:

Sweet! It's always nice to hear that other writers write with soundtracks on in the background.

I, OTOH, write with Jethro Tull, Ian Anderson, Tom Waits, and Robbie Robertson on shuffle.

NO WAY KRAD! You write with Tull and Ian playing? hahaha that's great!~

I can totally see the relationship between the mood of your action sequences and "in the shuffling madness .. a locomotive breath." ... On the other hand.. maybe not

Jk-