Warpath Discussion Thread (major, major spoilers)

[Marco Palmieri]

^Sorry. Didn't see this yesterday.

cmdrxeris said:
Marco, am I right in saying that Fearful Symmetry will feature the first verse of William Blake's "Tyger" as the poetic bit?:

"Tyger, tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night.
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry."

Although "The Tyger" is indeed the source of the title, I don't yet know if the verse will appear anywhere in the finished manuscript.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Be nice to see it, as it's my favourite poem and I've never seen it used as an epigraph before

 

[Christopher]

cmdrxeris said:
Be nice to see it, as it's my favourite poem and I've never seen it used as an epigraph before

It has been, in Alfred Bester's classic SF novel The Stars My Destination, whose original title was Tyger, Tyger.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Damn you! must you decrease my bank balance more with words a plenty?

I've read the few pages of excerpt and i'll just have to go and buy it at some stage.

*mutters imprecations incoherently*

 

[Sxottlan]

Just finished Warpath Monday. Some brief thoughts:

-An enjoyable read. The pacing was pretty good and the style of writing was brisk, economical and fairly descriptive without getting real pretentious. I generally liked the story, although I nearly cringed every time we went to the MU. The novelty and relevance of the MU wore off a long time ago for me. I'm glad the Intendent bit the big one. Such a boring character.

Of course, if the one pulling the strings was Ghemor, that begs the question of what exactly the Intendent was doing in the first place?

-The metaphor of Kira's coma vision was more straightforward instead of being so obtuse (at least when the Prophets weren't talking to her). All the weird wordplay I can get tired of quickly and try not to get so worked up trying to figure out what it all means. Kind of a waste of time. That said, all the Benny stuff from the show was nothing I was too keen on and this threatens to be more of the same, especially with a battle reminding me way too much of the Battle of Pelennor Fields mixed with Helm's Deep.

-The action scenes were all well executed and fairly involving. The graphic description of the bounty hunter murdering the ship's crew was too much though. Following three bounty hunters seemed a bit redundant. I can understand trying to establish Ghemor's cunning, but didn't think it needed it three times over.

-Yeah sorry, but I wasn't buying how everyone believed Prynn was dead so quickly. It's like every one on the bridge collectively forgot how easily combadges are used as diversions and how Jem'Hadar can shroud. It's like even after a large-scale war, there's no protocol or procedure when dealing with a Jem'Hadar i.e. beaming in stun grenades or sending a team who just sprays the cabin with wide phaser fire. The lack or any lifesigns should have sent up more of a red flag than anything else.

-And no, unfortunately it doesn't help when this follows after Vaughn was making the exact same assumption at the beginning of Twilight. I'm realizing how much of Vaughn in the recent books has dealt with his character almost entirely in his relationship with Prynn. He started out as the wise mysterious commander. Sort of like the difference between Season 1 Locke and Season 2 Locke from Lost.

-Great work on Taran'atar though. An interesting examination by the book and the character into the nature of his species. I'm actually rather glad someone else was directing him. I was afraid the books were sending him down a completely unredeemable path that could only result in him being expelled from the station or killed. At least now, this opens the door for him to come back since, naturally, no one was killed. No, really didn't think anyone was in danger. I had predicted after finishing the last book that someone would get artificial organs as a result.

-I actually had pegged the Cardassian Woman as Mirror Ziyal for most of the book.

Whiteboy said:
While there's a discussion of the fortress being faith and the Celestial Temple, I wonder if there's a different suggestion going on here? When I wasn't thinking about it, I kept thinking "wow, that sounds a lot like Terok Nor." Then, when I started reading it with a better understanding...are we about to see another Nor-class station introduced on the Gamma side of the wormhole? I might be looking at too many hints.

Well, the empty husk of Empok Nor is now in the Bajoran system. It probably wouldn't take all that much to tow it to the Idran system and put it in orbit of the Eav'oq homeworld.

 

[Tirius]

sxottlan said:Well, the empty husk of Empok Nor is now in the Bajoran system. It probably wouldn't take all that much to tow it to the Idran system and put it in orbit of the Eav'oq homeworld.

I thought of this too, but then remembered that the crew of DS9 has been using Empok Nor as a spare parts repository. As such, I doubt it would or even could be used as such an important defensive post anymore. Furthermore, Starfleet has been quoted as wanting to scrap DS9 in favor of a Federation-built Starbase (I think it was in Avatar during the refit, though I might be mistaken). For this reason, I also think it's unlikely they'd choose to put valuable resources into rebuilding Empok Nor that would be better used to construct a Federation starbase. It would only be possible if Empok Nor was still in relatively good condition.

Sorry for getting off-track, but what is the life expectancy of a starbase/space station anyway?

 

[Steve Roby]

sxottlan said:
Of course, if the one pulling the strings was Ghemor, that begs the question of what exactly the Intendent was doing in the first place?

Harrumph. My third pedant moment of the morning, and it's a repeat.

As I posted elsewhere, from The Telegraph:

Other constructions are annoying because the speaker should know better. Kirsty Wark used the phrase "beg the question" the other night to mean "invite the question", which it doesn't. To "beg the question" means to fallaciously take as proved the very premise you are arguing in favour of.

I really intend to post something constructive soon. Honest!

 

[Sxottlan]

Tirius said:
I thought of this too, but then remembered that the crew of DS9 has been using Empok Nor as a spare parts repository. As such, I doubt it would or even could be used as such an important defensive post anymore...I also think it's unlikely they'd choose to put valuable resources into rebuilding Empok Nor that would be better used to construct a Federation starbase. It would only be possible if Empok Nor was still in relatively good condition.

Towing Empok Nor to the Idran system could at least be a temporary measure. Retrofitting it could also be faster than building a station there.

I generally got the impression that it was in good condition, just abandoned for some reason. Although I'm sure I'm forgetting some little line of dialogue explaining it.

I've always loved the idea that they'd be able to retrieve from subspace all the tech the Androssi had installed to turn it back into the Death Star that it was.

However, I've also been leary of how much of a permanent prescense Starfleet and the Federation realistically wants to make in the Gamma Quadrant with only one avenue of getting back. Albeit a simulation, we've seen just a couple micro-torpedoes collapse the wormhole.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I'm writing a fanfic about a starfleet presence in the GQ, but the Dominion only held what appears to be the outer rim of the GQ, there is still much to explore starting closer to the alpha quadrant

 

[Christopher]

sxottlan said:
However, I've also been leary of how much of a permanent prescense Starfleet and the Federation realistically wants to make in the Gamma Quadrant with only one avenue of getting back. Albeit a simulation, we've seen just a couple micro-torpedoes collapse the wormhole.

Except that in "By Inferno's Light" the Changeling Bashir sabotaged DS9's efforts to collapse the wormhole in a way that served to reinforce it and make it more resistant to collapse.

 

[Sxottlan]

Christopher said:
Except that in "By Inferno's Light" the Changeling Bashir sabotaged DS9's efforts to collapse the wormhole in a way that served to reinforce it and make it more resistant to collapse.

The level of which was never really explained.

That always cracked me up for some reason. He sabotaged it so much it did the exact opposite. Ah, the magic of technology.

 

[Trent Roman]

sxottlan said:
That always cracked me up for some reason. He sabotaged it so much it did the exact opposite. Ah, the magic of technology.

Not inconceivable. It might be analogous to the way that pumping to much antibiotics into a system will cause certain strains to become resistant, or how pesticide/herbicide concentrates can spawn stronger pest species instead of killig them. If the wormhole is part of the Prophets rather than just being where they live, a reaction akin to an autoimmune system might be conceivable.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Christopher]

sxottlan said:
That always cracked me up for some reason. He sabotaged it so much it did the exact opposite. Ah, the magic of technology.

Well, obviously he did it by reversing the polarity of the neutron flow.

 

[William Leisner]

Trent Roman said:

sxottlan said:
That always cracked me up for some reason. He sabotaged it so much it did the exact opposite. Ah, the magic of technology.

Not inconceivable. It might be analogous to the way that pumping to much antibiotics into a system will cause certain strains to become resistant, or how pesticide/herbicide concentrates can spawn stronger pest species instead of killig them.

Or, like pumping too much air into a balloon, and something bad happens.

 

[JeremyW]

sxottlan said:


Of course, if the one pulling the strings was Ghemor, that begs the question of what exactly the Intendent was doing in the first place?

Hi folks, me again! In one of my recent reads, I considered this question as well. This is what occurred to me:

Intendant Kira thought she was controlling Taran'atar, and there were enough clues to suggest she was. I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if Intendant Kira's plan was to do some damage to our heroes...after all, she hadn't collected her 'debt' yet. (At the end of the Season IV episode "Shattered Mirror", the Intendant told Jake that she'd spare his life that time, but it'd be a debt that she intends to collect)

Learning how to manipulate a Jem'Hadar, though. That takes some cunning, and there enters Iliana. She being from the universe where we've met the Dominion, it wouldn't be hard for someone of her cunning to extract the necessary files, and plant the evidence for the Intendant to find, and use to her advantage, but Iliana would hold the ace: she also knew what was going on, and had it that Taran'atar follow the Intendant's instructions until the moment of betrayal. What I find so awesome, and I realize just how this threw me off the first time was that I had it that the Intendant and Iliana had met, but that's not what's written. The words to look at are:

"My we've gotten fierce since the last time we met." The Intendant's referring to Captain Kira in this statement (at least, this is what I follow). The Intendant realizes she's been played for a fool, much like she played everybody else for one. The irony's not lost on this scene.

Reminds me of Colonel Lovok from "The Die Is Cast". He as a Founder learned of Tain's plan, and modified it to work to the Dominion's advantage. And now Iliana's doing the same thing.

Great time to analyze this: sitting on the back roads of Minnesota on a Greyhound. The only thing you can do to not drive yourself mad.

Cheers!

 

[David Mack]

^ You're getting much warmer. Spot on at a few points, very close on a few others. Basically . . .

Spoiler: End of Warpath

The Intendant doesn't realize the true scope of her mistake until Iliana's dagger cuts her throat.

Your assumptions about the Intendant's erroneous conclusions are fairly accurate.

~ DM

 

[JeremyW]

^ Well...I might start calling you Mr. Garak from here on in. Another flashback moment?

Garak: "They're all true."
Odo: "Even the lies?"
Garak: (smiling) Especially the lies."

Always good to hold the winning hand. Now, I get there's something else here that I'm not seeing, and I'm sure when I figure it out, it'll be as plain as the back of my hand too... So, let's flush it out... SPOILERS BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You've been warned...................................



There are 3 Kira Nerys': Captain Kira Nerys, Intendant Kira Nerys, and Iliana Ghemor from the Captain's universe who's surgically altered to LOOK like Kira Nerys.

Taran'atar has been manipulated. The Crew of DS9 believe that it's the Intendant, not Iliana that they're after.

Taran'atar has orders to OBEY Kira Nerys per Odo. It was never pointed out which Kira to obey, and sure enough, Iliana I assert uses that to her advantage.

Intendant Kira believes she's calling the shots, but isn't. She works with the Ke Hovath from her universe to decipher the clues about the Wormhole/Celestial Temple.

In "Fragments And Omens", it's Iliana who is on the Besinian Freighter, conferring with the Ke Hovath who was the sirah of the Sidau village, and took the bracelet. The Iliana of 'OUR' unvierse.

The Mirror Iliana Ghemor is a Cardassian, not surgically altered, yet concerned for the life of Captain Kira Nerys. She knows her life's in danger. She tells Vaughn and Prynn that Gul Dukat (our Dukat, the one Sisko roasted) was the mastermind behind Iliana's surgical alteration, and then the op failed, betrayed from within, and then Iliana went all Jason Bourne on everybody.

Taran'atar cannot stand this woman (Iliana), and loathes the face. He finds it difficult to separate all the Kiras from each other, torn between duty, responsibility and loyalty.

The Intendant believes that the Kira Nerys who appears with Taran'atar is the Kira Nerys that she's already dealt with. When the dagger slices her throat, she learns the error of her ways.


I suppose the only other question that I need to go back to and discern surrounds the Orb Bracelet... I'll figure it out tonight.

 

[David Mack]

Essentially . . . yes.

As of the end of Warpath, the DS9 crew will soon know that it's not the Intendant they're up against.

As for how Iliana controls Taran'atar, remember Vaughn's discovery in Grennokar.

Regarding Mirror Iliana's motives . . . for those you'll need to read Fearful Symmetry next April.

And I'm certain you'll figure out the bracelet soon enough...

~ DM

 

[BrotherBenny]

Nice Jason Bourne quip, didja get that from the films or the books. and on topic, i completely agree

 

[Marco Palmieri]

Taran'atar cannot stand this woman (Iliana), and loathes the face. He finds it difficult to separate all the Kiras from each other, torn between duty, responsibility and loyalty.

It's a bit more subtle and complicated than that, actually.

Everything else... :thumbsup: