Voyager's main problems

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by DS9 Gal AZ, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In episode two (caretaker is one episode) the Doctor "fought" for the right to be turned off, but In Basics we find out that he can turn himself back on if he's not interested in being turned off by someone curt.

    In Season 3s The Swarm, they grafted the Doctors existing program onto the repair technician program (rather than resetting him, like you thought that happened, which didn't.), like a vampire, which is something that the Doctor has to do every 2 years now: Eat a hologram of comparable sophistication to live... But they NEVER talk about.

    A couple episodes later in Future's End, the Doctor talks about how his program recently crashed and he is still putting back together his database.

    The Doctor's program is self contained, and (relatively) small. If more information is added without care, or extracted without care... Have you ever played Jenga?
     
  2. TigerCat

    TigerCat Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Wasn't "The Swarm" the episode where Kes went into an early Elogium? Anyway, yeah that's what I remember. They were hesitant to do it because they didn't know if the Doctor's program would be saved in its entirety and it wasn't until he began whistling/singing they relaxed in the last few scenes. You're right, it wasn't resetting, my mistake.

    Every time the Doctor has to go somewhere they worry about losing him because there's only one of him. Even when he's transporting himself to the mobile emitter, it's the whole of him that makes the trip, like a "cut/move" instead of a "copy/paste" which is what you'd expect them to do.
    If his program is as small as it implies, why don't they keep save copies? Just the important stuff like the new medical knowledge he's amassed in the DQ and not the unimportant (for the ship's wellbeing) things like his drawing or singing hobbies.
     
  3. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, the episode where Kes goes into an early elogium is "Elogium" in season 1.

    "The Swarm" is a season 3 episode where The Doctor is losing his ability and there's a risk that they have to re-start him from scratch. Kes comes up with a brilliant method to save him
     
  4. TigerCat

    TigerCat Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Clearly I can't remember episode titles at all! Thanks for explaining Lynx.
     
  5. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Commodore Commodore

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    I agree, VOY has had great episodes and often had potential to be greater.

    Agreed. It's ironic, as I adore the episode "Timeless", but the TB (technobabble, not tuberculosis) used felt so convenient, contrived, and artificial. "A Borg temporal transmitter". Artificial not because of the alliteration, but because it's as if the Borg use these as commonplace as we use bars of soap. What are the Borg doing with all these convenient timey-wimey things? (Yes, "timey-wimey" should always and only be used as a pejorative. Or something Elmo on Sesame Street might say.)

    Big-time. Season 3's "Worst Case Scenario" took advantage of increased tensions, but subverting what could have been as a lame simulation - as lame booby trap set up by Seska as I recall. At least the show addressed the issue but the episode rocked until the big reveal. :(

    TNG didn't have very much of it as well, but with VOY it was worse. Neither is like other shows where so little is said about anybody where the characters are shown to do all sorts of things in later episodes that would be rightly deemed apocryphal had characters been thought out and set up before the writing of a single script took place. Now there's lazy development...

    "Timeless" is Harry's best episode. In part because he gets to be a human reacting to a bad mistake and showing character attributes of wanting to do what he thinks is the right thing. He's an incredibly underused character and one with guts and gusto when given the opportunity. TOS, TNG, et al, almost never showed mistakes or decisions not working out for anyone. Garrett also proves beyond the shadow of any doubt that the scripts were VOY's problem, not the actors, as he really sells the episode as the situation he's in continues to get worse. Even with the blasted TB.

    Agreed, a lot more should have been given.

    The best we got, in a perverse sort of way, are from episodes like "Living Witness" where we see the crew as a form of perception. This is why VOY needed a mirror episode because the actors are all clearly relishing their parts when getting to play other than "evolved 24th century Vulcan prototypes'. Yet without their main sensibilities would these one-time episodes where they get to play evil be as compelling?

    Seven definitely got the most character development...

    But, as with most Trek, there was no major development. Picard got turned into a Borg and there's a very special episode afterward that otherwise couldn't be made. But even after "Chain of Command", Picard's his reset-button self by the next week. Which is okay. It's a TV show, we love the characters, in real life most would have lifelong PTSD recurring and some to the point where they wouldn't be able to continue doing their starship duties. Could a show where many cast changes all the time due to such issues really last?

    Agreed on all counts. Jeri Ryan could act and she quickly makes 7 her own. VOY dug the Borg into the ground but the "reclaiming humanity" subplot was a touching one for me and it's easy to see why it became the "The Seven and Janeway Mystery Magical Tour".

    But, yep, the show got so hyper-focused on the new character that everyone else was still on the sidelines.

    But are all relationships based on how much the individuals in it have in common or is there something larger than a handful of shared interests?

    I can't deny the crew is a bit too smurfy at times, I agree. And the only one who should have been that was is, yes, Neelix.

    The holodeck was a bit extraneous, especially if they have to ration power from things like replicators. This harks back to the Marquis-vs-Starfleet missed opportunity as well.

    I forgot the holodeck had a different power source, which may have been introduced in later starships due to the events of TNG's "Booby Trap" where the thing was used for constructive problem-solving.

    Fairhaven, ugh...

    Television never changes, I suppose. Script order and production order are not always the same and there was no group of writers in the same room poking through all the scripts to ensure a consistent theme. Even TOS broke its own PD rules, but over the span of fifty years - never mind thirty - we'd surely see more consistency and cohesiveness in the plot scripting department thanks to improved script writing/editing software to keep track of issues, collaboration, and other things compared to a typewriter from way back when. "Final Draft" didn't exist in the 1990s either... Also, 90s Trek was at its peak for casual audiences and slowly entering burnout around 1995, so some of the discontinuity could be expected. (DS9 held its own but VOY definitely felt less focused at times. DS9 definitely got the extra care. VOY is good but could have been more frequently exceptional too.)

    If they went the lines of "Year of Hell" for seven years, that would have been fairly impressive... and depressive. Maybe for a season or two and then recover bits and pieces over time... As with Maquis-vs-Feds, seven years of the same theme would not have worked. But two episodes and a big bright shiny red reset button was the opposite extreme.
     
  6. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    They didn't for some bizarre reason the holodecks on VOY had an independent power supply that was incompatible with the ships other power systems.
     
  7. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The real reason was because Jeri Taylor for some reason had this sudden desire to do Holo-Novel storylines she never got a chance to do in TNG and used VOY as the vehicle for them. Also it was cheaper because it let them use period piece props leftover from other shows on the Studio Lot.

    If they'd waited until DS9 was finished, they'd have been able to use the leftover DS9 props and repurpose them for sci-fi stories and not waste time on the holonovel nonsense.
     
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  8. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Commander Red Shirt

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    Not really making the most of the concept

    - like treating the difficulties of being lost in the Delta Quadrant in a compelling and realistic way.

    - Doing almost nothing with the fact that the crew consisted of both starfleet officers and maquis members.

    Wasting interesting opportunities like letting Voyager return before the end of the show.

    Most members of the crew were uninteresting, with the exception of the Doctor and Seven.

    The Kazon.

    The way they treated the Borg.
     
  9. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Correct. As far as I can recall, the concept was that several episodes a season would have a teaser take place in Janeway's holo novel, which would all build up to a complete story over the course of a year, being replaced with a new one each season. Part of me thinks that idea is pretty neat, and part of me is glad they didn't actually do it :D But it is, pretty much, the main reason Voyager was given a pass to have independently powered holodecks...

    Another definite road not travelled. I can recall them considering it after DS9 ended, maybe with the last few seasons taking place back in the AQ, but tbh I'm not sure it would have made much difference. I would have shaken up the status quo a little maybe, but I don't doubt they'd have figured out a way to bring it back into line and hit that big ol' reset button every week ;)
     
  10. TigerCat

    TigerCat Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    That sounds really good to me, especially if it meant they'd make allies with some holographic alien species native to the DQ. They showed us such races (the aliens in Harry's Beowulf (I think) holonovel and the aliens during Bride of Chaotica) but they weren't brought up again. Granted such allies would be pretty much useless in physical battles but it would be a nice side story.

    I think it was in the extras of either season 5 or season 6 that one of the producers mentioned that. Personally I'm happy they didn't do it, for me Voyager is all about the journey and not the destination, but I do think that once they reached the halfway point (where the quadrants meet), they could take missions from Starfleet and carry them in the DQ. Bit of silver lining.
     
  11. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I enjoyed the time that Janeway spent with Leonardo Da Vinci.

    The problem with the whole holo-novel thing was the choice of subject. The Victorian governess just did not grab.
    And do what? Several episodes of Janeway reuniting with Mark and their dog? A debriefing (clip show) where Janeway justifies some of her pass command decisions?

    They got it right, Voyager is back and Earth is in the short distance. End of story, roll credits.
    Yes this. I'm not saying do a mutiny of week show, but the Maquis were trying as hard as they could to restart the war between the Federation and the Cardassians. A war that took millions of lives.

    The Starfleet crew (some of whom would have been veterans of the war) should have openly despised the Maquis.

    And the Maquis should have told Janeway that Voyager would sit dead in space for lack of crew before they would put on Starfleet uniforms.

    Having the two group dress differently would have pointed out in every episode that they were in fact two different groups. In time they would come to some kind of work-place understanding, but would alway be somewhat separate.
    Never had a problem with the Kazon, although I thought the show spent too much time with them. Voyager with it's speed should have left the Kazon territory after a few weeks.
     
  12. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What, like a meaningful story to the overall narrative or just a complete story of whatever the Holo-Novel was about?
     
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  13. KJY

    KJY Ensign Red Shirt

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    So it would've been like the McBain movies in The Simpsons?
    I personally would've had Chakotay put on the Starfleet uniform in the season 1 finale instead of the pilot. I think the best opportunity for real conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis crew members was the set up for Alliances. The Starfleet members being willing to prolong their journey and even die to uphold the prime directive while the Maquis members not is what I'm talking about. Whatever little conflict they had was resolved and forgotten about far too quickly.
    They, thankfully, sort of revisited this idea with Scorpion but with Janeway and Chakotay taking opposite positions this time.
    Unfortunately that wouldn't have worked. We already know mirror Tuvok is in the Alpha Quadrant as part of Captain Sisko's resistance and he's pretty much the same guy. I don't think it's plausible that there's an evil Voyager rampaging through the Delta Quadrant based on what we see in Deep Space Nine, unless you're positing another alternate universe.
     
  14. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A mirror Voyager could have been in the empire's alpha quad, and the story could have taken place there.
     
  15. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My recollection was that conceptually you were supposed to be able to piece them together as a single cohesive narrative from first to last. A kind of side-story, wholly unrelated to Voyager but kinda of an insight into Janeway. But the victorian governess thing didn't take, so it was quietly dropped.

    I do believe something of similar vein could've been tried with Captain Proton...
     
  16. Joel

    Joel Commander Red Shirt

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    VERY late to the party here.

    But, in short: the series didn't quite reach the same level of excitement and development as it appeared on paper. To quote Mark Hamill, "missed opportunity" and "Rian, I fundamentally disa" -oops, wrong franchise.
     
  17. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sorry to say this but a great majority of Holodeck programs seen in Voyager was a waste of time for viewrs... and money for producers but the victorian governess was maybe the worst so much it was not going anywhere.! :shrug:On the other hands, Chaotica was greatly and funny. :)
     
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  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Carolyn Seymour, the Governess, could have reprised either of her roles as the Romulan Commander from TNG Contagion or TNG Face of the Enemy.
     
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  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Eh, I could see that working in TNG or even DS9 but not VOY.
     
  20. chris of nine

    chris of nine Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I liked the Jane Eyre thing better than Fairhaven. Like they were doing Dark Shadows. But I’m a sucker for mansions. Shoot me.