Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by DS9 Gal AZ, Dec 12, 2011.
As long as it's not Network TV where he has to answer to someone. Then he falls apart or runs away.
That was an easy fallback excuse free of hard evidence, instead of accepting that the Berman-era of ST was worn into the ground by the time Voyager premiered, which is why--
Yes--Enterprise, with its white male captain was and is generally considered the final, destructive nail in the Berman-era Trek coffin, and was deservedly criticized throughout its run. Among some perceived failings was the bland cast, yet another catsuit wearing (or let's just say more form fitting) actress "sexing" the show up (the same purpose Ryan served on VOY), and revisionist crap for a show that was supposed to be a prequel to TOS, instead of looking like it belonged somewhere between TNG & DS9..
The constant revisionism of retro-activity was the problem with ENT, Disco is doing the same annoying thing BTW, but I thought the catsuit wouldn't have been a problem if the men could wear them too ala TMP - - very Star Trek.
Wasn't that what the reason they tried to make an alliance with the various fractions of the Kazon once? It led to Janeway deciding they were better off with no allies if their allies were trying to get them killed or using them, if I remember correctly.
In retrospect, I do think there should have been a bit more difficulty merging the two crews together, since Tuvok thought a mutiny plot holo-scenario was needed there had to be a reason for it, but I don't think we actually saw enough. Seska spoke against it, the quartet of "difficult" Maquis Tuvok trained were fully on board once they saw Tuvok would die for one of them, B'Elanna was a bit volatile at first but things did fall together rather nicely and easily practically as soon as she was given a top position. Looking back, I think I'd prefer it if there was a general unrest that would settle down to a united crew either at the end of season 1 or season 2 once Seska was firmly out of the picture, since she was the ringleader.
About lack of resources, they mention it often enough to keep it fairly realistic for me. Do I wish the repairs at the end of each episode/battle wouldn't leave the ship look brand new? Sure, but it's easy to understand why the studio couldn't/wouldn't pay the needed money to do just that.
You act like TOS was consistent with itself to begin with.
I have to disagree about difficulties to merge the Starfleet crew and the Maquis crew.
As I see it, both Starfleet and Maquis knew that they had to cooperate to reach Federation space. Therefore it would have been stupid of the Maquis to create a lot of trouble. In fact, they did have some trouble with Seska, Jonas and Suder and partially with Jarvin, Hogan, Dalby, Chell, Gerron and Henley. But most of the Maquis respected Chakotay and knew that he was right about both crews cooperating.
The only objection I have is that B'Elanna became tame too quickly. That should have taken at least 2-3 episodes due to her bad temper and dislike of all Starfleet in the beginning.
But I'm happy that Voyager wdidn't become like the horrible Stargate Universe where the military and civilians spent almost the whole first season constantly bickering, where the Captain was a drunken fool and the leader of the civilians was one of the most obnoxious characters I've seen in a SF-series.
That's my point. Yes, both Starfleet and Maquis knew they had to work together, but the two crews came together within a few episodes. Aside from a handful of Maquis, everyone else was seemingly all to happy to work together, yet Tuvok felt it prudent to create a mutiny holo-scenario as a tool for his Security personnel.
So no, I wouldn't want an entire season of them bickering, but some small difficulties emerging every few episodes or more vocal support of Seska or something to show that these two crews were in fact two crews learning to work together. As it was, aside from the pips vs bars on their collars, there is no way of distinguishing Maquis vs Starfleet only a few episodes in.
I'm going to jump in and share my opinion to the original topic question without reading all the previous posts.
I think Voyager's two main problems were airing at the same time as DS9 and trying too hard to craft story arcs in a format that was ideal for episodic stories. Each episode should have been a visit to a new system as they hunt for a faster way home than just flying there. Instead I feel they got bogged down in local events and didn't stay focused on getting home. I think they could have gone back to the formula that worked so well for TOS and pulled it off just as well. I think they wasted the potential of the show. I think running concurrently with DS9 was a big issue because the creative people who looked after both didn't put enough time into either one for it to have the quality that TNG rose to by Season 5.
Doing what I do best, I shall derail this train by positing that I might be the most happy-go-lucky fan in the Alpha Quadrant: I never minded any Trek show's bad science or inconsistencies (they all have them). As long as the story doesn't insult me, I'm good.
I cannot stand Seven, though. Her last-minute pairing with Chakotay was the type of inconsistency and bullshit that annoyed me way more than the never-ending supply of shuttles or the lack of consequences. But I still love the show, like I love all the shows.
I love ST VOY. It is my favourite series (even though with some flaws) It got the cast and the premise right. But the idea of being lost in space was "lost" when a two way communication with starfleet was established
And when they had unlimited power and shuttles they lost the premise and opportunities etc
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Sad but true. In a way, once they made regular and scheduled contact with Starfleet it was the beginning of the end.
Also true but I can talk myself into believing the unseen members of the crew were working behind the scenes to fix and rebuild shuttles (we saw about 10 people regularly yet Voyager had a consistent amount of about 150 people. Unless they were in stasis and pulled out just to die, they *had* to have been doing something!).
About their power supply they complain and get head first into trouble over their need for more every few episodes (when trouble doesn't find them in the form of unfriendly local aliens) so I can't say I want more complaining and whining about how little power they have.
I thought Seven was a important addition to the cast of characters on Voyager, she introduced a new dynamic and gave the writers new places to go. While it didn't have to be Seven, the show did need "something" to take the show in new directions.
Seven mixed up the show's established orthodoxy.
With her later pairing with Chakotay, if the writers wanted to pair Seven off with a existing main character the writers didn't have many options. Showing Seven romantically involved with someone (I felt) was a natural part of her progression from being pure Borg to more Human.
Seven had reach a point in her life where she was ready for this and it made sense.
I agree with the theory however in reality, all Seven did was look down her nose at everyone, mock things she disliked and lord how much better the Borg was over everyone.
Maybe my dislike of her colors my judgment but once Seven joined the cast the general way things went was "the Borg know *this*, so Seven will adapt it to fit Voyager, boom!solution". It felt like over half the main cast had no jobs anymore because Seven could (and did) do their work better than them so all they could do was stand around and look pretty. I like the idea of a redeemed Borg but not when that Borg takes over the ship practically. I signed up to watch Star Trek:Voyager, nor Star Trek: Seven.
That was laughable. Pulled out of left field just because with two Janeways to play off each other and Tom's baby about to be born, there was little to do for the rest of the characters so they had Harry be annoying in the past so he'll be wise in the future segment and dumped Seven and Chakotay in a relationship that had no lead-in and made little sense.
Aside from the inherent janeway/chakotay pairing, (and for some fans the j/7) I think her pairing made sense.
Saying that I have a soft spot where she ends up with Harry Kim instead in a fan edit on YouTube.
We didn't really see their relationship. We know that Seven, while continuing her "research" of human interaction created a holographic Chakotay that was exactly like the real Chakotay, then fell in love with him. It was only a matter of time before she felt ready to pursue the real thing.
It makes sense for Chakotay, too. He's a lover. He's lonely. And he's getting older. Throughout the series he just wants to settle down. So they go on what seems like a pretty innocent first date.
Compare this to Worf & Troi. In late season 7, in Eye of the Beholder, they very suddenly have sex. Then in All Good Things... they are in a serious relationship, which apparently doesn't end well.
Chakotay and Seven are just in the very initial stages. We hear that they eventually got married from future Janeway, but in the present, that is all very far off.
Except it was their third date, Seven mentions it when she surprises Chakotay with the picnic. It implies the relationship existed for a while even though there's no mention of it in the previous episodes. That's what makes it laughable and pulled out of a hat for me.
Much like Tuvok's illness, it's written just for the episode, just to serve some future flashforward with no real meat behind it. Had we seen either the Chakotay/Seven relationship or Tuvok's illness for a couple of episodes, it wouldn't have annoyed people (and no, I don't mean just the various Janeway/Chakotay or Janway/7 shippers).
I have a feeling Tuvok’s illness was in other episodes. It was certainly strongly set up things like murder mystery episode where he investigated himself. He had a *lot* of psyche damaging stuff go on throughout Voyager. Both were just natural enough logically for Voyagers light handed approach to serial.
He should probably have that mind melding disease from the mind melds he does. Spock, too.
My bad. Well, Endgame does take place a few months after the episode before it.
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