Voyager's main problems

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by DS9 Gal AZ, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Location:
    Great Britain
    was "Living Witness" one of the better Voyager's episodes. Yes it was.

    That however doesn't exempt it from being called out on a Key plot from previous episodes. The fact that they don't have a back-up copy of the EMH.

    It shows that the writers don't care abount continuity within the show. It could have been avoided very simply by a little fore thought.

    You have a line(s) of dialouge in previous episodes that amounts to this.

    Episode X. "I want you two to work on creating a way to back-up the EMH at the end of every day."

    Episode Y. "We've managed to find a way to back-up the Doctor at the end of each day."


    Now we don't have to know the ins and outs of how they've managed to do it. But it shows you aren't treating the audiance as the lowest common denominator.

    It doesn't matter what genre your show is you have to be consistant within the universe you have created. If you say previously there isn't a back-up copy then there isn't a back-up copy unless you address that issue before it becomes a plot element that you need a back-up copy.
     
  2. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Moncton, NB
    If they made an EMH backup, it degrades the EMH as a character because he's easily replaced and expendable whereas a non-backup EMH is more or less a member of the crew. Even in NuBSG they didn't "back-up" the Cylons whenever they killed them as much as they just have them transfer their minds into new bodies.

    So again, it's no-win. If they did what you said, the EMH is less of a character, and if they didn't then we lose out on "Living Witness".

    It's just like how "Unity" is used as an example of how the Borg were "emasculated" because it showed that assimilated people could be de-assimilated, or that the Borg Hive-mind could be used for beneficial purposes.

    Nevermind BOBW and I, Borg/Descent already showed both.

    Does anyone care that these were well-written episodes that had good ideas? No, all they care about is that the Borg didn't kill/assimilate everyone in seconds even though the Borg encountered weren't Borg anymore.
     
  3. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Location:
    I have always been here
    Have to disagree with you there. You can like something while still pointing out that it has a flaw or flaws. That's what this whole thread is about. Voyager wasn't my favorite Trek series, but I watched it faithfully when it was airing for all 7 sevens. I enjoyed it during its run and continue to enjoy it on occassional rewatch.

    Really, I don't understand why some people think criticism = loathing something with the fire of a thousand suns (I'm not saying that you neccessarily do). You can like something and still acknowledge its weak points.
     
  4. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Location:
    the real world
    First, if TV Tropes has already explained that there are different kinds of "technobabble," then there is no excuse for refusing to distinguish them.

    Second, the TV Tropes link defines filler as an episode in a serial that doesn't propel the narrative forward. Since Voyager was not serialized, this is completely irrelevant.

    Third, the claim that The Visitor didn't use technobabble in resolving the plot is just not true. There is no sane way to think that Jake dying will bring his father back. The dramatic resolution is Jake's choice to die but the "explanation" of the plot device that sets up this choice is pure technobabble. The only reason so few people will admit this is because The Visitor didn't use many big words, which is their true working definition technobabble!

    Fourth, the above except supposedly contrasting Parallax with The Visitor, doesn't even attempt to correctly describe what happens in Parallax. Which is, Janeway chooses between Torres and Carey (for Chief Engineer,) based on Torres' performance in a crisis. There's technobabble setting up the time hijinks premise, as well as the absurd escape route. But the climactic stretch of dialogue isn't even technobabble, for the very simple reason that it actually makes sense in context. It was a little harder to understand, which again goes to show how the practical, working definition (TV Tropes omitting it for amour-propre I'm sure,) is "big words."

    People will generally find adult Jake Sisko's decision to die to save his father more dramatic than Janeway filling a personnel slot. This has nothing to do with technobabble.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  5. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Location:
    Sector 001
    Funny in an ironic kind of way that you mention B5 as it was set on a space station, and Ds9 was set on one as well. Weren't they on at about the same time?
    Voyager did well enough in my mind even if it suffered from copycat syndrome with TOS & TNG ie a spaceship travelling the galaxy having adventures. I was not into the early seasons but after the Borg were reintroduced I followed it well enough, as I recall.
     
  6. HGN2001

    HGN2001 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2001
    Location:
    Sunny Central Florida
    The ratings for the two shows come from different universes. In syndication, Deep Space Nine most often, in most markets, after TNG left the air, aired in the 7 PM Saturday evening slot. Of course it varied from market to market at the local stations' whims as long as it was within the agreement set forth in the syndication contract between Paramount and the individual station.

    DS9 therefore - largely - ran outside of "prime time."

    VOY, on the other hand, was within the framework of a traditional broadcast network that Paramount tried to start. Its only schedule was 8PM to 10PM, in the heart of prime time, thus VOY always aired in prime time - in competition with the other major networks' best offerings.

    DS9 competed with other syndicated fare; VOY competed with major network programming. So if you were a Trek fan back then, you'd find it easy to schedule your hour of DS9 on an early Saturday evening (on average), but might have a harder time giving up a CBS, ABC or NBC powerhouse to watch VOY.

    There was also the "repeat" factor involved here. If you wanted to watch MURPHY BROWN or whatever CBS was running on their network, you could rationalize that you might be able to catch VOY on its within-week rerun. These were usually buried in late-night over the weekend - but it WAS THERE as a fallback. DS9 had these too, but was less necessary with its favorable scheduling away from major network fare.

    Harry
     
  7. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    That's just a silly notion. It's not hard to appreciate something without also being able to note its flaws. Hell, Jammer gave the episode his highest marks (four stars), while still pointing out the issue.

    The debate here isn't over techno-babble, but a changed premise.
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Lets not open up the DSN vs B5 debate again. It's been done to death, personally I enjoyed both DSN and B5.
     
  9. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Location:
    the real world
    Everybody here has made criticisms, nor has anyone taken umbrage at someone else doing what he or she has done too, namely, criticize Voyager.

    The problem is the silly posts that arrogantly insist on making stupid criticisms that can't be rejected.
     
  10. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Location:
    I have always been here

    Me too. Besides, if you wanna discuss B5 v DS9, that's really a topic for a separate thread. ;)
     
  11. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    That maybe but the straw was there.

    :lol:
     
  12. Amaris

    Amaris Fuzzy Logic Generator Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    United States
    I didn't choose "The Visitor" as the example, so don't look at me on that one.

    All in all, I think I'll just go on talking to other posters now. To be honest, when I find that a poster is unwilling to budge on even minor, almost petty issues, then there is no point in wasting what time I do have to discuss the series itself, a series I don't hate, though you seem to think otherwise.

    As for "big words", yeah, assume whatever you want. You've decided that contrary opinions hold no weight in your own universe, so yeah, do whatever, think whatever, say whatever. It's tedious discussing anything with your point of view. So keep your "the only reasons" and "big words", put a trophy in your avatar, and talk to yourself.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    You don't win these arguments when they admit that you are right, you win these arguments when they give up being wrong so openly.

    Really, who would admit that they have been an idiot for pages and pages, possibly years and years, when they would just ignore that there was ever a problem or an issue.

    "Sigh"

    I think the largest possible problem was that Stadi died.

    She was/is far more attractive than Jeri Ryan and it wouldn't have looked like a gimmick to keep this unbelievably attractive woman on set, as it did with the Seven of Nine final solution to my pants.
     
  14. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    There's two sides to this coin. MORE people are watching in primetime so a larger audience was available to tune into Voyager than if DS9 was showing at 7pm on a Saturday or something.
     
  15. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Location:
    CoveTom
    Nonsense. There are LOTS of Trek stories that I absolutely love that I still can nitpick and give you complaints about. Just because something is good doesn't mean that it's perfect. And just because someone has a complaint about an episode doesn't mean they don't enjoy it.
     
  16. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    Exactly!!
    Also what some overlook is that while DS9 had higher viewership, syndication wasn't paying as much as a major network. What's the point in being higher watched if you don't gain anything from it? Having all those folks watching is nothing if you aren't making major network profit in syndication. Voyager stood to make more being on Paramount's UPN because it was their own network, the money they put into it went back into their own pockets. There was no third party involved in UPN to dictate how much they'd get paid back for their show.
     
  17. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Location:
    the real world
    First, you repeated it, so why not? Second, and more importantly, you're the one who chose to misrepresent Parallax as [tech],[tech]. Not my fault if your position is so absurd you can't defend it without falsifying the episode.


    You haven't talked to me. You've abused my intelligence trying to pass off BS as a serious argument, simply denounced my rebuttals without making a single honest or valid argument. You even linked to TV Tropes without noticing that the source agreed with me instead of yourself. You're the one who reason to budge, not me. The vague notion that posters are supposed to agree to nonsense to show they "respect" someone else's silly opinion is folly.Why are you wasting your time ineffectively or even, as in the phony summary of Parallax, dishonestly, defending what you call a "minor, almost petty" issue?

    I don't think trotting out some damn fool buzzword is discussion, I think it's an imposition on rational people, treating them like fools. And you've done it without bothering to even read, near as I can tell, my criticisms of Voyager. You're not even interested in discussing Voyager, you only want to repeat old meaningless slogans attacking Voyager. Is this just to annoy people who really do like the series? What can you possible expect to accomplish?


    I'm not assuming anything. Your implication that I am is untrue. Just explain how I'm wrong, a real explanation, not an arrogant fiat. I'm sure it's tedious trying to discuss The Visitor and its supposed freedom from technobabble, when the plot is completely insane. I'm sure it's tedious trying to pretend the dramatic resolution to Parallax is technobabble when it actually makes sense, given the premises. I'm sure it tedious trying to find some other distinction between The Visitor's nonsense and Parallax's nonsense other than big words. I'm sure it's tedious to try explain how it's reasonable to expect a personnel placement to be as dramatically intense as a death scene. But it's your hole you dug, and just because you can't dig your way out, doesn't mean you have the right to abuse someone else for your folly.
     
  18. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    The money is irrelevant to most fans. Most people just wanna know which show got the most viewers.
     
  19. Amaris

    Amaris Fuzzy Logic Generator Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    United States
    Yeah, that's whatever it is for ya.
     
  20. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    No shit.

    This has nothing to do with fan opinion.