VOY before and during the 7/9 era

[Lynx]

Sorry they tried to soft pedal the truth for the audience/fans.
Would you prefer if they had said they flat out didn't like writing for Kes, so they dumped her for that reason?

That hadn't been the truth either since it obviously was a "beeezneeez" decision.

If it had been the truth and they had admitted it, then they would have admitted that they weren't doing what they were paid for and in that case they should have been fired.

If they had been honest, they should have made a statement like:

"We decided to bring in a sexy babe to attract male, teenage viewers and since we are so short of money (or greedy), we felt it necessary to dump one regular. We were about to dump Kim but then the actor was choosed as one of the 50 most handsome by an inside poll among the staff of an important magazine and since dumping Kim also might have enraged parts of the Asian community, we decided to dump Kes instead."

They pretty much did, where you been?

The writers are also the producers, so firing one or any of the cast for whatever reason is part of their job and shouldn't be fired for doing it. Honestly Lynx, have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe you became attached to the wrong character?

I don't think that they did that.

OK, they more and less admitted that Seven was brought in to attract male, teenage viewers (I think they actually did state that too) but that's all.

When it comes to Kes, first they tried to come up with hints that Jennifer Lien had left of her own free will. When people weren't buying that, they did admit that she was kicked out but then they started with the fairy tales about how they "couldn't come up with stories about the character" which isn't the truth either since they actually were able to come up with stories about thecharacter up to the last minute of season 3 and maybe season 4 to if we include the original script for "Year Of Hell".

Not to mention that Jeri Taylor herself did come up with two books where Kes plays an important part.

And if they can't write for one of the characters, then they aren't doing the job they are paid for.

By the way, look at Kim in the series where he's rather weak and compare it with the Voyager books where he's actually doing something. So I see no reasons why it should be impossible to come up with good stories for Kes. If I can do that, I expect the same from professional writers.

As for me, I've been around since 1997 when it comes to Voyager and since the mid-nineties when it comes to TNG and the other shows.

As for being attached to the wrong character, definitely not. Maybe the wrong series.

 

[exodus]

That hadn't been the truth either since it obviously was a "beeezneeez" decision.

If it had been the truth and they had admitted it, then they would have admitted that they weren't doing what they were paid for and in that case they should have been fired.

If they had been honest, they should have made a statement like:

"We decided to bring in a sexy babe to attract male, teenage viewers and since we are so short of money (or greedy), we felt it necessary to dump one regular. We were about to dump Kim but then the actor was choosed as one of the 50 most handsome by an inside poll among the staff of an important magazine and since dumping Kim also might have enraged parts of the Asian community, we decided to dump Kes instead."

They pretty much did, where you been?

The writers are also the producers, so firing one or any of the cast for whatever reason is part of their job and shouldn't be fired for doing it. Honestly Lynx, have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe you became attached to the wrong character?

I don't think that they did that.

OK, they more and less admitted that Seven was brought in to attract male, teenage viewers (I think they actually did state that too) but that's all.

When it comes to Kes, first they tried to come up with hints that Jennifer Lien had left of her own free will. When people weren't buying that, they did admit that she was kicked out but then they started with the fairy tales about how they "couldn't come up with stories about the character" which isn't the truth either since they actually were able to come up with stories about thecharacter up to the last minute of season 3 and maybe season 4 to if we include the original script for "Year Of Hell".

Not to mention that Jeri Taylor herself did come up with two books where Kes plays an important part.

And if they can't write for one of the characters, then they aren't doing the job they are paid for.

By the way, look at Kim in the series where he's rather weak and compare it with the Voyager books where he's actually doing something. So I see no reasons why it should be impossible to come up with good stories for Kes. If I can do that, I expect the same from professional writers.

As for me, I've been around since 1997 when it comes to Voyager and since the mid-nineties when it comes to TNG and the other shows.

As for being attached to the wrong character, definitely not. Maybe the wrong series.

Doesn't matter how you spin it, it still comes down to one thing and one thing alone: they didn't like writing for her anymore, so they let her go.

That's really all there is to it.

All this post proves it that no matter what excuse they gave, someone was going to find something in it to take issue with. So it doesn't really matter if they lied or told the truth, this conversation would still be the same.

 

[Furtados_Feet]

There's no excuse for the character of Harry Kim, I think we can all leave it at that lol.

 

[exodus]

There's no excuse for the character of Harry Kim, I think we can all leave it at that lol.

Boo....hiss!!!!

No seriously, I agree. How could I not?

The problem with Harry was he was written so subtly, you never felt he contributed much. However most of the new technology that came from Voyager was created by him. Harry was supposed to be an Engineering genius but his personality was so dull, you didn't care. An over achiever with no personality.


Harry was Trek's equivalent of a yuppie.

 

[Lynx]

exodus wrote:

Doesn't matter how you spin it, it still comes down to one thing and one thing alone: they didn't like writing for her anymore, so they let her go.

That's really all there is to it.

Obviously Jeri Taylor liked to write for her despite stating the opposite. She came up with two books where Kes had an important role.

Not to mention those who came up with "Sacred Ground", "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After", "Scorpion" and the original script for "Year Of Hell". Really strange that they lost interest for the character so quick.

It had nothing to do with what they wanted to write or not, it was all rotten politics. They had to fire someone to make room for Seven and when they couldn't dump Harry (for reasons mentione in previous posts), Kes became the victim.

The problem with Harry was he was written so subtly, you never felt he contributed much. However most of the new technology that came from Voyager was created by him. Harry was supposed to be an Engineering genius but his personality was so dull, you didn't care. An over achiever with no personality.


Harry was Trek's equivalent of a yuppie.

The Voyager books stays more close to the original premise of the character Harry Kim. In many of those he's actually saving the day by coming up with some good technical solutions. He's also involved in much more action than in the series. Unfortunately, he ends up in sickbay badly injured in many of the books too but that's another story.

In fact, many of the Voyager books treats the characters better than the series did.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But that logic, they liked writing for Harry even less, and since suddenly he just had to look pretty, it ascertained that they didn't have to write for him at all since his celebrity was independent of the show. More so that any attempt to change the character, buy writing for him, from the pretty man in People Magazine might destroy this X-Factor they thought they could milk instead of backing Kes.

 

[Furtados_Feet]

Bryan Fuller or Piller or someone, not sure who said on the DVD extras he felt the show lost a lot when Kes left, he was one of the main writers so that pretty much contradicts what was officialy said.

 

[exodus]

exodus wrote:

Doesn't matter how you spin it, it still comes down to one thing and one thing alone: they didn't like writing for her anymore, so they let her go.

That's really all there is to it.

Obviously Jeri Taylor liked to write for her despite stating the opposite. She came up with two books where Kes had an important role.

Not to mention those who came up with "Sacred Ground", "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After", "Scorpion" and the original script for "Year Of Hell". Really strange that they lost interest for the character so quick.

It had nothing to do with what they wanted to write or not, it was all rotten politics.

Does any of this really matter now?

No excuse or reason anybody gives is going to change the fact that Kes was written out and the show is over. What's done is done and we're just beating a dead horse.

 

[Furtados_Feet]

That's for true

 

[KayArr]

I'm rewatching season 4 right now, and Jeri Ryan MADE Seven was she was. She did a hell of a job with that role. I'd say that if she took over the show as time went on, it's because she did such a great job with the part. Same goes for Picardo, really--I hated what they'd done to the Doctor by season 7--but I'd say it's because Picardo just acted the hell out of the role.

If Ryan would have been a poor actor, she'd have faded into the background just like Harry did--but she rocked as Seven.

 

[Lynx]

exodus wrote:

Doesn't matter how you spin it, it still comes down to one thing and one thing alone: they didn't like writing for her anymore, so they let her go.

That's really all there is to it.

Obviously Jeri Taylor liked to write for her despite stating the opposite. She came up with two books where Kes had an important role.

Not to mention those who came up with "Sacred Ground", "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After", "Scorpion" and the original script for "Year Of Hell". Really strange that they lost interest for the character so quick.

It had nothing to do with what they wanted to write or not, it was all rotten politics.

Does any of this really matter now?

No excuse or reason anybody gives is going to change the fact that Kes was written out and the show is over. What's done is done and we're just beating a dead horse.

In that case maybe we should stop discussing the show and just leave it where it is and instead concentrate on debating the relaunch books where there also is a lot of unnecessary character destruction.

Besides that, an unjustice won't be justified only because some years have passed.

KayArr wrote:

I'm rewatching season 4 right now, and Jeri Ryan MADE Seven was she was. She did a hell of a job with that role. I'd say that if she took over the show as time went on, it's because she did such a great job with the part. Same goes for Picardo, really--I hated what they'd done to the Doctor by season 7--but I'd say it's because Picardo just acted the hell out of the role.

If Ryan would have been a poor actor, she'd have faded into the background just like Harry did--but she rocked as Seven.

I agree that Ryan is a terrific actress and that they were lucky to get her because her talent made it possible for them to concentrate on the character itself and the development of the character, not only the looks.

But I do think that if they had gotten a less talented actress, they would only have focused on the "sex thing" and still made Seven a prominent character. Just look at "Enterprise" and T'Pol.

As for Picardo, he does have a habit to make his character become prominent. What I can guess, The Doctor weren't supposed to be a prominent main character, I guess that the original plan was to have him more in the background but after three seasons, he became a prominent main character together with Seven and Janeway. The same for Mr. Woolsley in Stargate Atlantis. First he was just a recurring character, then all of a sudden he was the boss at Atlantis!

 

[exodus]

exodus wrote:


Obviously Jeri Taylor liked to write for her despite stating the opposite. She came up with two books where Kes had an important role.

Not to mention those who came up with "Sacred Ground", "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After", "Scorpion" and the original script for "Year Of Hell". Really strange that they lost interest for the character so quick.

It had nothing to do with what they wanted to write or not, it was all rotten politics.

Does any of this really matter now?

No excuse or reason anybody gives is going to change the fact that Kes was written out and the show is over. What's done is done and we're just beating a dead horse.

In that case maybe we should stop discussing the show and just leave it where it is and instead concentrate on debating the relaunch books where there also is a lot of unnecessary character destruction.

Besides that, an unjustice won't be justified only because some years have passed.

If you wanna spend your days nitpicking things you can't change, then that's your choice. For me personally, I don't find it productive and it just makes debates go round in circles.

 

[Lynx]

^^
You do have some points there but I can't help being annoyed over it.

I can tell you that if they had made a decent come-back episode instead of "Fury", I would have dropped the matter there and then.

If those responsible for the relaunch books had come up with something I had found acceptable, I would probably have regarded the case closed (even if I would still have to deal with those who would smack me in the face with comments like "books are not canon").

I thought that Christie Golden would come up with something during the way, I know that she liked the character. But with he current bunch of people in charge of the books, we'll be happy if there are any of the main characters left five years from now.

The only positive thing is that the ghastly situation actually made me come up with some good stories myself.

 

[kimc]

If you wanna spend your days nitpicking things you can't change, then that's your choice. For me personally, I don't find it productive and it just makes debates go round in circles.

Then again we could all actually be out doing stuff instead of sitting in front of our computers talking about Trek. Now THAT would be productive.

 

[exodus]

If you wanna spend your days nitpicking things you can't change, then that's your choice. For me personally, I don't find it productive and it just makes debates go round in circles.

Then again we could all actually be out doing stuff instead of sitting in front of our computers talking about Trek. Now THAT would be productive.

I'm at work multi-tasking.

Lynx, you also seem to not want Kes to grow up either.........or do so under your terms. It's like that Rose under glass in "Beauty & The Beast". It never grows old, never changes and never withers and dies. I don't believe anything anybody writes besides your own stories is going to be to your liking. I think that's part of why your annoyed, I think. You're looking for those in charge to share you vision and nobody does, unfortunately for you.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Fortunately, I'm living in another time-zone so it's 21.30 here now when I finish this post. All my daily routines are already done.

Besides that, the weather has become miserable this evening so this is the most constructive I can do right now.

As for nitpicking, sometimes I get into the mitpicking mode, like when I commented on Samantha Wildman's pregnancy in that other post.

 

[exodus]

^^
Fortunately, I'm living in another time-zone so it's 21.30 here now when I finish this post. All my daily routines are already done.

Besides that, the weather has become miserable this evening so this is the most constructive I can do right now.

As for nitpicking, sometimes I get into the mitpicking mode, like when I commented on Samantha Wildman's pregnancy in that other post.

You nitpick?

Peshaw, no not you.

I must be thinking of your evil twin:Lore-Lynx.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, you also seem to not want Kes to grow up either.........or do so under your terms. It's like that Rose under glass in "Beauty & The Beast". It never grows old, never changes and never withers and dies. I don't believe anything anybody writes besides your own stories is going to be to your liking. I think that's part of why your annoyed, I think. You're looking for those in charge to share you vision and nobody does, unfortunately for you.

Not entirely correct but almost.

I mean, who wants to watch an episode or read about Picard retiring from his duty in Starfleet to buy an ostrich farm or watch an episode or read a book where Miral Paris visits her senile parents in some institution?

What I do think most of us wants is to watch episodes or read about those characters at their prime. As for aging and such, there are certain series which are about that, some of them I might find watchable as well if I like the general premise and the characters.

As for Kes in books, I'm quite happy with the Voyager seasons 1-3 books. OK, some minor details which doesn't really fit in some of them but nothing which disturbs my appreciation for those books.

As for future books, there was a time when I used to wish that they would bring back Kes in some book. But there's always the risk that it would only lead to further character destruction so I've abandoned those thoughts. Besides that, I'm quite happy with my own stories. It took me ten minutes to correct the damage made to the character in "The Gift" plus some other minor details and it took me 30 seconds to get rid of the crap from "Fury" so the story continues from there. Besides that, in my stories, Janeway is also alive and well!

You nitpick?

Peshaw, no not you.

I must be thinking of your evil twin:Lore-Lynx.

Yes, that one! He has created some trouble, hasn't he?

Or maybe it's just the Klingon half of me!

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Millennium books were set somewhat 30 years in the future a little after the antitime events in All Good Things... And Picard has lost it to Eurmidic(sp?) syndrome... But still senile, and naked, well into his nineties, we are reintroduced to the character in print caked in the blood of MANY skewered and quartered Romulans as he stands mad ready with a bat'leth to continue on dispatching the idiot children they send to kill him some more... I mentioned he was naked right? He's gibbering all along like Rainman but kiling Romulans is just pure instinct that the reptile end of his brain doesn't need any help with.

TNG: Family by the way, was one of the best episodes of Star trek ever, and that was just about picard going home to visit his brother at the Vineyard in France, get drunk and mud wrestle.

Small stories can be very rewarding.

This is what I see, the usual sort of room in which you'd find a therapy group in some low rent high school gym,, we see four, maybe five broken (emotionally.) men on little folding canvas chairs beginning to throw through the motions of yet another exhusbands of B'Elanna Torres Club.



If I can sit though After M*A*S*H*, then I can sure as hells wade through after Voyager with a smile.

 

[KayArr]

I was never a Kes fan, particularly, but after reading about Fury, I've never watched it and never will. It sounds like it's a travesty. I was also happy with the finale, so I haven't read any relaunch books.