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Visual Explanation of the HealthCare Debate

The napkin outlines something a lot of other articles miss that with any type of reform or no reform people are going to be paying more one way or another.
 
The main reason I worry about any sort of reform is if it will stifle profits. Profits are absolutely essential to keep improving.

Also, not true about patients being the only people who fund the insurance industry.
 
My mother worked for a pharm. company - Profits don't lead to better healthcare. They lead to better commercials, trust me.
 
My mother worked for a pharm. company - Profits don't lead to better healthcare. They lead to better commercials, trust me.
Both really. Commercials can also bring new knowledge to people ailing with conditions that they don't know what to do with.

Plus, I really don't want a huge chunk of federal money going into this. The national debt is already about $160,000 per man, woman, and child in the US.
 
The main reason I worry about any sort of reform is if it will stifle profits. Profits are absolutely essential to keep improving.

Please delineate for me how record profits for the insurance industry have fueled improvement in health care delivery?

Also, not true about patients being the only people who fund the insurance industry.

No, oftentimes the people paying in don't ever get to become patients, as their insurance company drops them when they get sick. :bolian:
 
I guess this is just peachy and cute if you've never heard of tort reform... or medical savings accounts... or Medicare's current financial situation.
 
I guess this is just peachy and cute if you've never heard of tort reform... or medical savings accounts... or Medicare's current financial situation.

They can be neatly explained using the napkin's seesaw analogy, though; The first is a provider-side fix, the second is an alternate way for paying for health care that doesn't involve the insurer.

Medicare is, for all intents and purposes, an insurer that only takes on the most troublesome and least profitable cases.
 
I guess this is just peachy and cute if you've never heard of tort reform... or medical savings accounts... or Medicare's current financial situation.

First off, tort reform.

A excerpt

"The reviewers found that almost all of the claims involved a treatment-related injury. More than 90% involved a physical injury, which was generally severe (80% resulted in significant or major disability and 26% resulted in death). The reviewers judged that 63% of the injuries were due to error. The remaining 37% lacked evidence of error, although some were close calls.

Most claims (72%) that did not involve error did not receive compensation. When they did, the payments were lower, on average, than payments for claims that did involve error ($313,205 vs. $521,560)."

In short, medical malpractice isn't the huge problem conservatives have been painting it as for years and years.

Second, medical savings accounts? In an era when the average household carries like eight grand in credit card debt and the unemployment rate continues to rise? Poor theory, and wholly unworkable for the average American.

Third, the United States pays the most for healthcare only to find itself near the bottom of the first world in care. The more I hear conservative arguments the more I support outright universal healthcare enactment. You complain Medicare isn't solvent, but much of that projection is the result of skyrocketing causes enacted by the greedy, money hogging private sector. Healthcare costs haven't ballooned because of Medicare or a rapid increase in the availability of new medical technologies. It's because of that see-saw where everyone is fighting a dirty turf war for every red cent. That war needs to stop before it sinks this country.
 
I guess this is just peachy and cute if you've never heard of tort reform... or medical savings accounts... or Medicare's current financial situation.

First off, tort reform.

A excerpt

"The reviewers found that almost all of the claims involved a treatment-related injury. More than 90% involved a physical injury, which was generally severe (80% resulted in significant or major disability and 26% resulted in death). The reviewers judged that 63% of the injuries were due to error. The remaining 37% lacked evidence of error, although some were close calls...
Even if you accept the study's findings at face value, it does not discount the fact that malpractice insurance and lawsuits have a significant impact on health care costs and the story you linked to concedes that.
Finding ways to streamline the lengthy and costly processing of meritorious claims should be in the bullseye of reform efforts.

Further, I don't see how a medical savings account is any more unworkable than tax increases and payments to current health insurance plans. Such savings accounts would permit people to carry only catastrophic coverage rather than "insurance" that covers medications and other incidental expenses.

Oh, and that "turf war" won't be going anywhere even with current reform proposals. Medicare currently pays about 15 cents on the dollar and Obama wants to cut that figure even further... although providers will probably have a harder time getting fair compensation with the government as their adversary.
 
Even if you accept the study's findings at face value, it does not discount the fact that malpractice insurance and lawsuits have a significant impact on health care costs and the story you linked to concedes that.
In case you missed that point, it also noted that the vast majority of lawsuits were entirely legitimate. Tort reform is cited because of waste in the system, and yet, as demonstrated, the current system isn't all that wasteful. Your proposal for reform doesn't actually do anything but trade large, legitimate, rulings for those disabled due to medical mistakes and transfer that back into the system as these people surpass a capped amount and re-enter the health system disabled and lacking in the necessary funds to pay for treatment. In the end, the medical industry is still paying them.

In the end, it's simply unethical. As the study points out many plantiffs wait five years for a settlement to be reached, and capping that amount at the $250,000 isn't going to afford them much care given the reason they're suing in the first place.

Further, I don't see how a medical savings account is any more unworkable than tax increases and payments to current health insurance plans. Such savings accounts would permit people to carry only catastrophic coverage rather than "insurance" that covers medications and other incidental expenses.
Because it fixes nothing, because more and more people can't afford even a basic plan anymore, because more and more businesses can't afford to cover healthcare anymore, and because the American people are in no financial position to save much of anything right now. I'd like to know, exactly, where this money is supposed to come from.

Oh, and that "turf war" won't be going anywhere even with current reform proposals.
It would if both industries operated under a not-for-profit model. Let's also note you assume I support the Democrat plan. I don't. They tried to reach across the aisle when they should have steamrolled UHC over the Republicans.

Medicare currently pays about 15 cents on the dollar and Obama wants to cut that figure even further... although providers will probably have a harder time getting fair compensation with the government as their adversary.
This is a terribly lazy statement. Providers and consumers are milked to death by insurers who are making absurdly large profits. You don't think providers are losing money in dealing with private insurance companies? You don't think that inflates prices on other procedures aren't common place? You don't think providers are attempting to inflate the price of procedures because they have to cover the costs of the uninsured?

And let's also note the absurdly large bureaucracy private insurance has created. Medical coding now takes a 2 year degree, and in most hospitals an entire floor is devoted to coding and dealing with various insurance companies.

My point? If it weren't for hyper inflation of medical costs due to windfall profits, the strong arming of patients and providers, that Medicare cost might line up a bit better witht he cost of actual procedure.
 
In case you missed that point, it also noted that the vast majority of lawsuits were entirely legitimate.
So what? Litigation still takes years, don't guarantee a big check for the patient and even if they win the lawyer gets at least half. Medical malpractice litigation is a disaster for everyone accept attorneys.

Because it fixes nothing, because more and more people can't afford even a basic plan anymore...
The current system is woefully flawed in that your "insurance" plan is supposed to cover everything. It's completely absurd.

When the patient is effectively disconnected from the cost of care, we get the inflated pricing and fighting between the providers and insurance companies. If patients paid for medications and checkups out of pocket, drug companies and care providers would have the ability (and the prudent obligation) to charge fair prices. Further, they would have lower operating expenses because they wouldn't have to go through a bunch of bullshit to get things like prescriptions paid for. "Insurance," by it's very definition is supposed to be risk management... and indeed every other kind of insurance is. Insurance companies should only be in the business of gambling I won't get hit by a bus, not running a gargantuan bureaucracy that pays to have my teeth cleaned.

Oh, and that "turf war" won't be going anywhere even with current reform proposals.
It would if both industries operated under a not-for-profit model....
For profit care is the best way to go. John Stossel explains
 
Micheal Chris said:
The main reason I worry about any sort of reform is if it will stifle profits. Profits are absolutely essential to keep improving.
The only thing these profits help are the health insurance company CEO's and their shareholders.
Mr. B said:
I guess this is just peachy and cute if you've never heard of tort reform... or medical savings accounts... or Medicare's current financial situation.
Tort reform is worthless malpractice payouts account for about 2% of health care expenditures. Medical savings accounts won't help much as with the high cost of care can be depleted rather easily. Medicare's financial status aside it has saved millions of lives and has improved countless others you can't put a price on that. (source for tort reform) http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=az9qxQZNmf0o
Mr. B said:
For profit care is the best way to go. John Stossel explains
John Stossel is also a self professed Libertarian what else would you expect from him? He completely ignores the problems with the US system and spouts lies and tired arguments against the Canadian and UK systems.
 
The main reason I worry about any sort of reform is if it will stifle profits. Profits are absolutely essential to keep improving.

How has the insurance industry raking in profits helped so far? It's their job to provide a way for people to pay for their medical coverage. They've been taking in consistently high amounts of profit (even during the current recession) while people every day are going into huge debt from normal and necessary medical procedures. Even people who already have coverage!

Clearly there's a point of failure here.

On Medicare: it's a really poor example. A full UHC program that covers everyone will bring overall medical costs significantly down. Medicare currently has funding problems because private insurance has driven costs up so high for various reasons and because it covers such a relatively small amount of people it can't bring those costs back down on its own. People like to bring up Medicare as evidence that the US can't handle UHC when in actuality Medicare's problems are just another symptom of the grip insurance companies have on the healthcare system. Cover everyone with a base level of care and those problems start to become resolved.
 
Tort reform is worthless malpractice payouts account for about 2% of health care expenditures.
That figure does not account for malpractice insurance costs which are built into doctor's fees. The overall figure increases further if you include defensive medicine procedures.
Medical savings accounts won't help much as with the high cost of care can be depleted rather easily. Medicare's financial status aside it has saved millions of lives and has improved countless others you can't put a price on that.
So, even though Medicare/Medicaid is broken, it's scope and accompanying financial woes should be increased exponentially because it's done some good?
...and spouts lies and tired arguments against the Canadian and UK systems.
To what lies are you referring?
 
No, oftentimes the people paying in don't ever get to become patients, as their insurance company drops them when they get sick. :bolian:

I have never ever had anyone I know tell me insurance refused to cover them. I'd be interested in some stats on this.

But don't get in the way of me calling the doctor and getting an appt that day with the doctor. Don't ruin healthcare for 280M just so a few million can be covered on our dime.

As for the napkin video, how much did Obama's cronies pay to put that out?
 
Mr. B said:
So, even though Medicare/Medicaid is broken, it's scope and accompanying financial woes should be increased exponentially because it's done some good?
I never stated medicare/medicaid should be expanded exponentially, just that it has done some good.
Mr. B said:
To what lies are you referring?
Stossel mentions long wait lists for care under the NHS and Canadian systems, true some people do end up on a wait list but most people don't. Compare that to the infinite wait if you have no coverage in the US.
Gertch said:
But don't get in the way of me calling the doctor and getting an appt that day with the doctor. Don't ruin healthcare for 280M just so a few million can be covered on our dime.
Those few million are covered by our dime. One of the reasons health care costs have gone up is that by law emergency life saving care has to be provided regardless of ability to pay.
 
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