Very confused over 50th anniversary (spoilers naturally)

[MacLeod]

You know, you are right. I forgot all about the reality bomb. It is a brilliant contrast that both the Daleks and the Timelords are equally despicable factions in the time war.

I think that is my biggest problem with TDOTD. Moffat not only rewrote Doctor Who history but he did it in the worst possible way. He whitewashed the history of the timelords. You watch episodes like "The Night Of The Doctor","The End of Time", "Trial of A Timelord" (there are others I can't recall atm), it apparent that the timelords are not a race worth saving. Yet Moffat glosses over that and uses the 2.47 billion children of Galifrey as a "shield" to defend his decision of restoring Galifrey. He presents the timelords as some noble victims of a tragic war with the Daleks. When we know it was The timelords who instigated this war. Rassilon (The high president) and the council had decided to initiate The Final Sanction, which would destroy all of creation and elevate the timelords to a status of pure consciousness. This is given one line of dialogue in TDOTD. When The Doctor presumably finds Galifrey. What is to stop Rassilon and the council from iniating that plan again? The time war was over by the time the council escaped the time locked events. Yet they still intended to carryout The Final Sanction when there was no need to.

Can you really condemn all Time Lords because of the decisions of their rulers?

The General we saw seemed to know the Council were as mad as hatters (possibly by this stage as mad as The Master) and there are many more who make up a culture than Rassilon.

Never mind how bad an actions they may have committed having to wipe them out is something the last few Doctors have regretted, very much in character to change what happened if he could.

Didn't the general also view The Doctor as a mad fool? Yet in the end still decided to support The Doctor's idea to save Gallifrey? But by that stage I suppose any hope (which The Doctor did point out) no matter how slender was better than no hope at all.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

OR that canon is subjective to the whims of whomever is running the show. RTD did not like the Time Lords so he wrote them out of the show. Moffat waited to the eleventh hour (2nd to last episode of his third season) of his run with Matt Smith as the Doctor to rewrite what we thought were the events of the Time War. His his decision was motivated because he did not like the thought of the Doctor killing children. All the episodes I listed are from the Davies era. I can't remember all the Galifrey references from Matt's era. I think "The Doctor's Wife" and maybe "Hungry Earth" .

Well, that might be an out of universe explanation, but it's not an in-universe one. I gave one, you gave another. I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the implications of that scene.

 

[intrinsical]

OR that canon is subjective to the whims of whomever is running the show. RTD did not like the Time Lords so he wrote them out of the show. Moffat waited to the eleventh hour (2nd to last episode of his third season) of his run with Matt Smith as the Doctor to rewrite what we thought were the events of the Time War. His his decision was motivated because he did not like the thought of the Doctor killing children. All the episodes I listed are from the Davies era. I can't remember all the Galifrey references from Matt's era. I think "The Doctor's Wife" and maybe "Hungry Earth" .

Actually I remember an interview from years ago, when Moffat just took over from RTD. He said specifically that he had a long term plan to connect RTD's version of Doctor Who back with classic Who. I remember he specifically said he had a few goals for his tenure, including bringing back more classic monsters, making The Doctor mysterious again, getting rid of the label "Last of the Time Lords" and perhaps even bring back the Time Lords. Sounds like he achieved what he planned to do.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^Oh word?
Well I do like that he brought back the Silurians, Zygons and Ice Warriors.

I have no problems with him restoring the Time Lords. It's about time they did come back. Visiting these boards, youtube and tumblr; I've seen there is a divided consensus on what we saw in TDOTD was always the way things happened or a revision of events. Greater transparency would be nice, but it's not a deal breaker for me to not enjoy the episode.

Making the Doctor more mysterious? Eh, I don't think he's achieved that. Eleven is pretty much everything we see he is. We know what makes him tick, we know he's quirky, we know what he will and won't stand for. There aren't layers to peel back of his character. He's not like a complex antihero with an equally complex code of honor and morals type character you see a lot in other media.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

He's not mysterious to us, he's mysterious to his enemies. He can no longer just defeat them by saying "Look me up".

 

[Aldo]

^Oh word?


Making the Doctor more mysterious? Eh, I don't think he's achieved that. Eleven is pretty much everything we see he is. We know what makes him tick, we know he's quirky, we know what he will and won't stand for. There aren't layers to peel back of his character. He's not like a complex antihero with an equally complex code of honor and morals type character you see a lot in other media.

He says as much at the end of "The Wedding of River Song" where he wants to get back into the shadows, be more of an enigma. Hell in the series 7 opener the Daleks memory is wiped of all knowledge of the Doctor. Now he's no longer popping up around the galaxy and running into the same issues James Bond does when he goes into a casino...not everyone knows who he is anymore.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^^ Ah ok. I thought Moffat was referring to making the Doctor more mysterious to the audience. Not to the people of the Doctor Who universe. If that's the case then yes, Moffat has succeeded.

Has everyone seen this mini episode? It's brilliant.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_UU_qWLvm4[/yt]

 

[DS9Continuing]

BTW, one thing that was interesting was the way that John Hurt, even after seeing his future, still decided he wanted to go through with it. Likewise, Tennant and Smith agreed with him. It was only Clara who forced him to think of a different option.

What I saw was that Hurt saw 10 and 11 refusing to allow UNIT to blow up London to save the world, and it was because they had once made a similar decision themselves. He saw that it was their regret over what he did that made them work all the harder never to allow that again. "How many worlds has their regret saved?" So, he reasoned that for them to be like that, he had to complete the circle and do the thing they regretted. He had to be the bad one, so that they could be as good as possible in response.

For 10 and 11, I agree that they were acting out of fellowship, of trying to lighten his burden once they realised that it had to be done. It was about accepting him as one of them, rather than dissociating from him as they had.

I've seen the episode about 4x now. I really think the Bad Wolf is there to change history. The War Doctor resolves 2x to use The Moment, and each time the Bad Wolf interrupts him.

Yes, I agree that the Moment stops him. Hurt thinks (and the audience thinks) that the reason she shows him that snippet of the future is so he'll see the regret of his future selves, as I explained above. What he and we eventually realize is that she actually shows him that snippet of the future because it involved the 3D paintings, which gave him the idea of how to save Gallifrey. So yes, that was her ultimate reason - stop him from using the Moment, and save Gallifrey.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that she changed history by doing so.

From 11's point of view (and 11 is our POV character in this, since this is taking place in his era), this has all already happened. It's the past. This is what always happened - the Moment always convinced the Doctors to save Gallifery rather than destroy it, and that event always involved Hurt, 10 and 11 (and eventually the rest of them too) working together.

It's just that 11 didn't know that because it hadn't happened yet in his personal timeline, and Hurt and 10 didn't know it because their memories were wiped thanks to the 'out-of-sync timelines' maguffin.

So history wasn't changed - it just wasn't what we thought it was.

I think the 9th Doctor said he contemplated going back also but was unable to in the episode "Father's Day".

9's line in "Father's Day" was more that he shouldn't do it, rather than that he couldn't do it. I don't think the concept of a Time Lock - something that was actually stopping him from changing anything regardless of his intention to or not - was introduced until 10's time.

But if we assume that 9 also knew about the time lock, as surely he must, then presumably he thought of the events of the Time War, including the destruction of Gallifrey, as a Fixed Point. An event in time and space that has happened, will happen, and must always happen because it's an integral part of the fabric of existence. Something that you can't change because if you do the universe falls apart.

That was the theme of "Father' Day" - that there are some things you can't change, no matter how much you may want to. It was also the theme of "Parting of the Ways" - that you can change things in your mind, even if not in reality, by making a different decision when faced with the same circumstances. You may not be able to change the Fixed Point, but you can make up for it by doing something different next time.

Then we come to "Wedding of River Song," where we learn that sometimes a Fixed Point is not what you think it is. 11 thought that he had to die at Lake Silencio, that nothing could change that. Everybody in history thought the same. But that wasn't what the Fixed Point actually was - it was only that everybody thought he died, not that he actually died. It looked like he changed a Fixed Point against all the rules, but it was actually just that he misunderstood what the Fixed Point was. History didn't change, just our understanding of it.

Then you've got things like "The Fires of Pompeii" or "The Waters of Mars," where everything 10 does to stay out of the way of history and not change anything only ends up with him involved in events all the more, and his eventual understanding that this is always the way it was. Even when he does manage to tweak a couple of details, they snap back into place against his will. History refuses to be changed, not when there's a Fixed Point involved.

All of those come together in "Day of the Doctor." He has the opportunity to change his mind when faced with the same circumstances again. We realise that what actually happened is not what we thought happened. And history resolves itself around the paradox by simply making the Doctor forget.

.

 

[FreddyE]

Something that confuses me about the episode: Why did the War Doctor regenerate? I really don´t see a reason. He wasn´t hurt, sick or dieing and his body was far from "wearing thin"...he just seems to regenerate for no apperant reason. Did I miss something?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Something that confuses me about the episode: Why did the War Doctor regenerate? I really don´t see a reason. He wasn´t hurt, sick or dieing and his body was far from "wearing thin"...he just seems to regenerate for no apperant reason. Did I miss something?

His body was wearing thin, which is why he said it.

 

[FreddyE]

He did? Well...he didn´t in the german dub...or he did but the translation was so off I missed it. I have to rewatch it.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

He did? Well...he didn´t in the german dub...or he did but the translation was so off I missed it. I have to rewatch it.

Here.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Something that confuses me about the episode: Why did the War Doctor regenerate? I really don´t see a reason. He wasn´t hurt, sick or dieing and his body was far from "wearing thin"...he just seems to regenerate for no apperant reason. Did I miss something?

His body was wearing thin, which is why he said it.

Yeah, I wasn't sure I bought that bit. But when you look at it, John Hurt is older now than William Hartnell was when he regenerated in 1966. So if Hartnell was old enough to just regenerate out of old age, then Hurt must have also been.

And we know Hurt must have been around for a looooong time. The visual difference between Hurt in "Night" and "Day" is quite extreme, and we know that the 200 extra years 11 aged during his stint had no noticeable effect on him visually at all. So for Hurt to look as old as he does, he must have been in that incarnation for frickin' ever. So a regeneration out of old age isn't totally unbelievable.

But, I think I would have preferred it if he had voluntarily begun his own regeneration, if he had said to himself, "I'm sick of this blood-soaked life, I need a new start," and that was why he changed. "Oops, I guess I'm a bit old now" is rather anticlimactic. If Romana can regenerate for no physically vital reason, so can the Doctor.

Although, there was also a line that contradicted the idea that Time Lords have some control over their regeneration. When 10 and 11 first meet and compare screwdrivers, 10 implies that 11's is bigger because he's compensating for a lack elsewhere (ahem). "Not your fault, regeneration's always a gamble," or words to that effect. Now granted, that was just a knob joke so you don't have to take it as gospel. And the Doctor had always come across as get-what-you're-given. But the implication has always been that other Time Lords, if not the Doctor, do have some level of control over their regenerations.

This episode also neatly killed that ridiculous 'looms' idea by clearly showing Gallifreyan children as well, which is nice.

.

 

[Venardhi]

Not necessarily. I have no opinion on the matter but if someone wanted to bring back the looms or include them in their personal canon, it wouldn't be very difficult to find a way. Particularly because the distinction between Gallifreyan and Time Lord still hasn't been made clear.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

There is that infamous scene from "Destiny of the Daleks", where Romana goes through several faces and asks the Doctor's opinion before she settles on one he had dismissed earlier. I'd like to think Regeneration can be a voluntary and involuntary process. The Doctor always regens after some physical trauma he sustains or fatigue in his body.

 

[The Wormhole]

This episode also neatly killed that ridiculous 'looms' idea by clearly showing Gallifreyan children as well, which is nice.

Why does everyone keep saying that? The "looms" were effectively done away with in The Sound of Drums when we saw the Master as a child.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

He's not mysterious to us, he's mysterious to his enemies. He can no longer just defeat them by saying "Look me up".

Although, ironically, it was Moffat who was mostly to blame for that. He used the reputation of the Doctor more than anybody else. That being said, the Daleks and Cybermen knew who the Doctor was previously, so it wasn't entirely him, but he spread that to everyone.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Although, ironically, it was Moffat who was mostly to blame for that. He used the reputation of the Doctor more than anybody else. That being said, the Daleks and Cybermen knew who the Doctor was previously, so it wasn't entirely him, but he spread that to everyone.

I wouldn't say he's "to blame", I'd say it was intentional. Whether he was successful or not is a matter of personal opinion, but at least part of the eleventh Doctor's story is about how the Doctor finds a way to reconcile the story he tells about himself:

"I'll be a story in your head. That's okay. We're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? 'Cause it was, you know. It was the best. The daft old man who stole a magic box and ran away. Did I ever tell you that I stole it? Well I borrowed it. I was always going to take it back. Oh that box. Amy, you'll dream about that box. It'll never leave you. Big and little at the same time. Brand new and ancient and the bluest blue ever. "

With the story other people tell about him:

"There was a goblin, or a trickster. Or a warrior. A nameless, terrible thing, soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies. The most feared being in all the cosmos. And nothing could stop it, or hold it, or... reason with it. One day it would just drop out of the sky and tear down your world."

 

[M.A.C.O.]

He's not mysterious to us, he's mysterious to his enemies. He can no longer just defeat them by saying "Look me up".

Although, ironically, it was Moffat who was mostly to blame for that. He used the reputation of the Doctor more than anybody else. That being said, the Daleks and Cybermen knew who the Doctor was previously, so it wasn't entirely him, but he spread that to everyone.

Moffat was hyping up his Doctor's reputation before he ever made an appearance. Before Matt Smith had even been cast! This would be back in Series 4, "Silence in the Library", and "Forest of the Dead". Compare the 11th Doctor throwing around his reputation in Series 5 and 6; to the 9th Doctor who went around deleting his name and all record of himself back in "World War Three". 9 knew he was dangerous and didn't want anyone following him.

Speaking personally for a moment. I think a lot of my disappointment with 11 during his first series was a combination of things. The hype attached to 11's reputation, his bravado and confidence, and the presentation his that series' conflict just seemed weak with what we had seen before. The cracks in the universe plot wasn't a terrible idea, but it wasn't investigated like a serious threat throughout the series. It came off as a rehash of the words Bad Wolf following the Doctor back in series 1. Only the cracks were more blatantly presented. Where as the Bad Wolf words could be snuck in on a wall or said in one sentence and you'd miss them. Series 6 turned it around though. We finally see the Doctor that River was praising so highly back in Series 4.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Moffat was hyping up his Doctor's reputation before he ever made an appearance. Before Matt Smith had even been cast! This would be back in Series 4, "Silence in the Library", and "Forest of the Dead".

Yeah, I was specifically referring to that moment.

Compare the 11th Doctor throwing around his reputation in Series 5 and 6; to the 9th Doctor who went around deleting his name and all record of himself back in "World War Three". 9 knew he was dangerous and didn't want anyone following him.

I can't remember this. What happened exactly?

However, it's worth pointing out that the current situation is even more extreme. The Daleks have remembered the Doctor for quite some time (certainly anything post-Davros). Even that's gone now.