^^What was the reference to Gallifrey in Torchwood? I don't remember that at all.
Very confused over 50th anniversary (spoilers naturally)
- Thread starter Paul Weaver
- Start date
Right. The Eleventh remembers, because he's both the most recent Doctor (and as established by previous multi-Doctor stories, all past Doctors forget their crossing-over, except for the latest one) and because he initiated the whole thing. It was his decision to alter the outcome of Gallifrey's fate.
And don't most of those referrences to Galilfrey burning come from the Doctor? To the outside observer it seemed as Gallifrey did indeed burn. But as the events we saw in "The Day of the Doctor" indicate this observation was wrong. The Doctor did indeed use The Moment to end the war, or rather The Moment used The Doctor to end the war in a manner which saved Gallifrey, whilst to the outside universe it appeared both Dalek's and Time Lords perished.
The interesting thing is, the Series seem to have been schizophrenic about wether Gallifrey was only Time Locked or actually was also physically destroyed. At times The Doctor seems to have meant only locked away, and at other times he's made it clear that there is no doubt it was destroyed.
Is this a convenient inconsistency in writing that we can now say shows both versions/memories (to some degree) were there all along?
Is this a convenient inconsistency in writing that we can now say shows both versions/memories (to some degree) were there all along?
Yeah it's definitely a paradox. I think one could argue Eleven freely chose at that moment to change history... which then retroactively made it the way things always happened.
The alternative is that everything the Doctors do is simply destined to happen, which I don't think the show has ever wanted to be truly the case.
. Other than that a fantastic episode 
Yeah, from the outside it has the same mass as a regular police box.
I want to know what the Doctors did with the Moment. Did they leave it in a barn in the middle of nowhere or in the TARDIS? They didn't take it with them to Gallifrey.
I never saw an inconsistency. The planet was physically destroyed (he thought), and the time-lock prevented him (or anyone else) from going back into the planet's history to change that event. That's all. It's not actually as complicated as you seem to want to make it.
Besides which, Time Lords have always seemed to be time-locked relative to each other anyway. One Time Lord always meets another in the same order - the Doctor never meets the Master earlier in the Master's personal relative timeline than the last time he met him. They stay in parallel to each other, even if they're all over the place relative to the rest of the universe. Not sure how that happens - settings of their TARDISes, nature of the time vortex, pure luck - but it does. (River doesn't count because by the time she started time travelling she wasn't a Time Lord anymore.)
If it counts for the individuals, I assume it counts for the planet as well. The Doctor could never go back to an earlier point in Gallifrey's history than the one he was naturally in sync with. That was always the case. Now that it's destroyed, that's even more so. It's just that now the time-lock applies to everyone else as well.
(Of course, while writing this I realize that the very events of this episode contradict that, as all 13 Doctors are present at the same time, which means at least some of them must be non-relative. I will justify it by saying that the Bad Wolf/Moment allowed the exception.)
It's not a paradox. It's the way it always was. The only difference is that now the Doctor knows this is the way it always was. He thought it was the other way before, but he was wrong.
Here's an actual quote from an interview with Steven Moffat, which I believe supports my version.
Steven Moffat said:
^So basically Moffat sounds as if he is saying the events we saw in "The Day of The Doctor" was always the way the last day of the Last Great Time War played out. Just that the Doctor's memories of it were wrong i.e. thinking he had destroyed Gallifrey along with the Dalek's.
I thought so too before the episode "The End of Time". When Rassilon's plan to make all the time lords pure energy/consciousness was revealed and that it would kill EVERY other living thing in the galaxy. It wasn't just the carnage of the war that drove the Doctor to use the moment. It was his desire to save all of creation.Since the timelords were about to cross the line that not even the Dalek's were capable of crossing.
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" kind of thing.
Yea, I get all that. There were times, though, when it seemed The Doctor spoke as if The Time Lock was the only problem
Did the Doctor know Rassilon et al were going to do that though? I'm not certain he did.
Yes. Remember the Doctor told the Master in "The End of Time" what the timelords became at during the tail end of the war. The scene and dialogue occur right as Rassilon and the other council members come through the portal to Earth.
One thing I want to know:
There were Daleks on Gallifrey. They were going through Arcadia wiping out the masses.
Then later we see the Dalek fleet bombarding the planet from above, presumably trying to get through the sky trenches above the remaining cities (or the whole planet and the Daleks just managed to get through a gap).
Now, when the Doctor boxed the planet, were there still Daleks on the surface? So presumably (if Moffat remembers), when Gallifrey is restored there will still be a pocket of Daleks to contend with.
Either that or the Time Lords deal with them while they're in isolation (was it established the planet would be frozen like in stasis or simply cut off from the rest of the universe?).
There were Daleks on Gallifrey. They were going through Arcadia wiping out the masses.
Then later we see the Dalek fleet bombarding the planet from above, presumably trying to get through the sky trenches above the remaining cities (or the whole planet and the Daleks just managed to get through a gap).
Now, when the Doctor boxed the planet, were there still Daleks on the surface? So presumably (if Moffat remembers), when Gallifrey is restored there will still be a pocket of Daleks to contend with.
Either that or the Time Lords deal with them while they're in isolation (was it established the planet would be frozen like in stasis or simply cut off from the rest of the universe?).
