Very confused over 50th anniversary (spoilers naturally)

[Robert D. Robot]

I have been wondering-- Why were there no TARDISes seen being put into the fight from Gallifrey? I understand that the novels mention "Battle TARDISes". It seems odd to me that this powerful tool of Time Lord Technology was not used to defend their home world. If the Doctor's ship was the only one available, it seems this situation is a Doctor Who equivalent of the Trek movie theme where the Enterprise always 'the only ship in the sector'. Maybe the Daleks made some sort of pre-emptive strike to disable or destroy Gallefrey's TT capsules?

 

[Sindatur]

I have been wondering-- Why were there no TARDISes seen being put into the fight from Gallifrey? I understand that the novels mention "Battle TARDISes". It seems odd to me that this powerful tool of Time Lord Technology was not used to defend their home world. If the Doctor's ship was the only one available, it seems this situation is a Doctor Who equivalent of the Trek movie theme where the Enterprise always 'the only ship in the sector'. Maybe the Daleks made some sort of pre-emptive strike to disable or destroy Gallefrey's TT capsules?

I think The Time War, in general, was far more like The Great intelligence in The Doctor's Time Stream, (erasing his victories, and Clara reversing those reversals) than what we see in Day of The Doctor. I think, the Timey-Wimeyness of The Time War had been exhausted at this point, and that's when we see the final assault, with Dalek "Boots" on the ground for that final assault. So, I think The War had moved beyond The Battle TARDIS Point, by the time The Moment was stolen and used (or not used)

 

[Romulan_spy]

I have been wondering-- Why were there no TARDISes seen being put into the fight from Gallifrey? I understand that the novels mention "Battle TARDISes". It seems odd to me that this powerful tool of Time Lord Technology was not used to defend their home world. If the Doctor's ship was the only one available, it seems this situation is a Doctor Who equivalent of the Trek movie theme where the Enterprise always 'the only ship in the sector'. Maybe the Daleks made some sort of pre-emptive strike to disable or destroy Gallefrey's TT capsules?

I think we can assume that all the battle tardises had already been destroyed since this was at the every end of the war that the Time Lords were losing. The Daleks had completely surrounded the whole planet, destroyed the major cities and the capital was the last city left.

 

[Saul]

Where did the other 10 Doctors come from? Did he contact himself asking for help and explaining the situation?

 

[Sindatur]

Where did the other 10 Doctors come from? Did he contact himself asking for help and explaining the situation?

The TARDIS has always taken him where he Needed to go. I'm a subscriber to the theory that The moment's Sentience came from a Bad Wolf Splinter (IE: The TARDIS personified in Rose). So, Bad Wolf did it, hence why Rose understood The Doctor so well, and was able to help him "heal". Once there, Capaldi could've directed the earlier incarnations what to do

So, yea, Bad Wolf/The TARDIS brought the other 9 (+possibly Capaldi) into the equation, since the TARDIS sees all of his timeline and even has Desktops patterns saved that he hasn't yet used. As The Doctor's Wife shows us, The TARDIS can't quite comprehend the difference between Past and Future, and neither could Bad Wolf/The Moment Interface/Rose

 

[Skellington]

Where did the other 10 Doctors come from? Did he contact himself asking for help and explaining the situation?

Sounds like one heck of a conference call, but it seems that he dd exactly that. Shouldn't be too difficult, given the use of the Time/Space telegraph in the same episode.

Also, it seems that the first several incarnations were lying their collective asses off about not being able to fly the TARDIS. I bet he gave up after Sarah-Jane called him on it.

I bet they even used the stabilisers.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Hmm, cool interview. And I have to agree with Moffat that the Doctor destroying Gallifrey has always seemed hugely out of character for him.

I thought so too before the episode "The End of Time". When Rassilon's plan to make all the time lords pure energy/consciousness was revealed and that it would kill EVERY other living thing in the galaxy. It wasn't just the carnage of the war that drove the Doctor to use the moment. It was his desire to save all of creation.Since the timelords were about to cross the line that not even the Dalek's were capable of crossing.

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" kind of thing.

The Dalek's along with Davros were ready to wipe out all of reality, evrey reality in "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End"

You know, you are right. I forgot all about the reality bomb. It is a brilliant contrast that both the Daleks and the Timelords are equally despicable factions in the time war.

I think that is my biggest problem with TDOTD. Moffat not only rewrote Doctor Who history but he did it in the worst possible way. He whitewashed the history of the timelords. You watch episodes like "The Night Of The Doctor","The End of Time", "Trial of A Timelord" (there are others I can't recall atm), it apparent that the timelords are not a race worth saving. Yet Moffat glosses over that and uses the 2.47 billion children of Galifrey as a "shield" to defend his decision of restoring Galifrey. He presents the timelords as some noble victims of a tragic war with the Daleks. When we know it was The timelords who instigated this war. Rassilon (The high president) and the council had decided to initiate The Final Sanction, which would destroy all of creation and elevate the timelords to a status of pure consciousness. This is given one line of dialogue in TDOTD. When The Doctor presumably finds Galifrey. What is to stop Rassilon and the council from iniating that plan again? The time war was over by the time the council escaped the time locked events. Yet they still intended to carryout The Final Sanction when there was no need to.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Rassilon and, quite possibly, the council wouldn't have survived their encounter with John Simm's Master I'd imagine. So really all The Doctor has to worry about is the possibility of The Master having taken control of Gallifrey when, and if, he finds it again. Still, The Doctor now has plenty of time to come up with a plan to stop any such galaxy/universe destroying shenanigans that any loony Time Lord may try to attempt.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

It's Moffat who changed/retconned history. Granted there was some wiggle room go make the restoration of Galifrey possible.

Dialogue from episodes that corroborate Galifrey falling and burning. Off the top of my head would be.

Doctor Who
"End of the World"
"Dalek"
"Father's Day"
"The Parting of the Ways"
"The Sound of Drums"
"Fires Of Pompeii"
I want to say "Journey's End" and "Stolen Earth" but I can't be sure. I haven't seen them in awhile.
"The End of Time"

Torchwood
"Adrift"

^^What was the reference to Gallifrey in Torchwood? I don't remember that at all.

Not a direct reference to Galifrey but RTD was in charge of DW and TW at the time. So it's subtley implied that the burning planet was Galifrey. Jonah was 15 when he was taken by the space time rift. 7 months had passed on Earth but for Jonah he was aged 40 years before returning.

Watch here.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDkXKhEmS7A[/yt]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yRzUGY7C3A[/yt]
The first minute of the second video is where Gwen talks about what else happened to Jonah when he was presumably transported to the burning Galifrey.

 

[Venardhi]

Hmm, cool interview. And I have to agree with Moffat that the Doctor destroying Gallifrey has always seemed hugely out of character for him.

I thought so too before the episode "The End of Time". When Rassilon's plan to make all the time lords pure energy/consciousness was revealed and that it would kill EVERY other living thing in the galaxy. It wasn't just the carnage of the war that drove the Doctor to use the moment. It was his desire to save all of creation.Since the timelords were about to cross the line that not even the Dalek's were capable of crossing.

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" kind of thing.

The Dalek's along with Davros were ready to wipe out all of reality, evrey reality in "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End"

You know, you are right. I forgot all about the reality bomb. It is a brilliant contrast that both the Daleks and the Timelords are equally despicable factions in the time war.

I think that is my biggest problem with TDOTD. Moffat not only rewrote Doctor Who history but he did it in the worst possible way. He whitewashed the history of the timelords. You watch episodes like "The Night Of The Doctor","The End of Time", "Trial of A Timelord" (there are others I can't recall atm), it apparent that the timelords are not a race worth saving. Yet Moffat glosses over that and uses the 2.47 billion children of Galifrey as a "shield" to defend his decision of restoring Galifrey. He presents the timelords as some noble victims of a tragic war with the Daleks. When we know it was The timelords who instigated this war. Rassilon (The high president) and the council had decided to initiate The Final Sanction, which would destroy all of creation and elevate the timelords to a status of pure consciousness. This is given one line of dialogue in TDOTD. When The Doctor presumably finds Galifrey. What is to stop Rassilon and the council from iniating that plan again? The time war was over by the time the council escaped the time locked events. Yet they still intended to carryout The Final Sanction when there was no need to.

The government's actions aren't necessarily representative of the entire species though. Some asshole started the time war, some other asshole decided the only way to counter the Daleks counterattacks was to bring back Rassilon, who turned the war into a scorched-earth, survival-at-any-cost total war clusterfuck. Those assholes shouldn't doom the entire planet if there is a way to avoid it.

 

[starburst]

You know, you are right. I forgot all about the reality bomb. It is a brilliant contrast that both the Daleks and the Timelords are equally despicable factions in the time war.

I think that is my biggest problem with TDOTD. Moffat not only rewrote Doctor Who history but he did it in the worst possible way. He whitewashed the history of the timelords. You watch episodes like "The Night Of The Doctor","The End of Time", "Trial of A Timelord" (there are others I can't recall atm), it apparent that the timelords are not a race worth saving. Yet Moffat glosses over that and uses the 2.47 billion children of Galifrey as a "shield" to defend his decision of restoring Galifrey. He presents the timelords as some noble victims of a tragic war with the Daleks. When we know it was The timelords who instigated this war. Rassilon (The high president) and the council had decided to initiate The Final Sanction, which would destroy all of creation and elevate the timelords to a status of pure consciousness. This is given one line of dialogue in TDOTD. When The Doctor presumably finds Galifrey. What is to stop Rassilon and the council from iniating that plan again? The time war was over by the time the council escaped the time locked events. Yet they still intended to carryout The Final Sanction when there was no need to.

Can you really condemn all Time Lords because of the decisions of their rulers?

The General we saw seemed to know the Council were as mad as hatters (possibly by this stage as mad as The Master) and there are many more who make up a culture than Rassilon.

Never mind how bad an actions they may have committed having to wipe them out is something the last few Doctors have regretted, very much in character to change what happened if he could.

 

[Zeppster]

My main issue with this episode is how can a unit helecopter carry the t.a.r.d.I.s. I mean really it's a fraggin space ship that is disguised as a police box. Not a police box it's self argh . Other than that a fantastic episode

TARDIS has been moved a ton. Just go back to the First Doctor with Marco Polo.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I thought so too before the episode "The End of Time". When Rassilon's plan to make all the time lords pure energy/consciousness was revealed and that it would kill EVERY other living thing in the galaxy. It wasn't just the carnage of the war that drove the Doctor to use the moment. It was his desire to save all of creation.Since the timelords were about to cross the line that not even the Dalek's were capable of crossing.

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" kind of thing.

The Dalek's along with Davros were ready to wipe out all of reality, evrey reality in "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End"

You know, you are right. I forgot all about the reality bomb. It is a brilliant contrast that both the Daleks and the Timelords are equally despicable factions in the time war.

I think that is my biggest problem with TDOTD. Moffat not only rewrote Doctor Who history but he did it in the worst possible way. He whitewashed the history of the timelords. You watch episodes like "The Night Of The Doctor","The End of Time", "Trial of A Timelord" (there are others I can't recall atm), it apparent that the timelords are not a race worth saving. Yet Moffat glosses over that and uses the 2.47 billion children of Galifrey as a "shield" to defend his decision of restoring Galifrey. He presents the timelords as some noble victims of a tragic war with the Daleks. When we know it was The timelords who instigated this war. Rassilon (The high president) and the council had decided to initiate The Final Sanction, which would destroy all of creation and elevate the timelords to a status of pure consciousness. This is given one line of dialogue in TDOTD. When The Doctor presumably finds Galifrey. What is to stop Rassilon and the council from iniating that plan again? The time war was over by the time the council escaped the time locked events. Yet they still intended to carryout The Final Sanction when there was no need to.

The government's actions aren't necessarily representative of the entire species though. Some asshole started the time war, some other asshole decided the only way to counter the Daleks counterattacks was to bring back Rassilon, who turned the war into a scorched-earth, survival-at-any-cost total war clusterfuck. Those assholes shouldn't doom the entire planet if there is a way to avoid it.

Can you really condemn all Time Lords because of the decisions of their rulers?

The General we saw seemed to know the Council were as mad as hatters (possibly by this stage as mad as The Master) and there are many more who make up a culture than Rassilon.

Never mind how bad an actions they may have committed having to wipe them out is something the last few Doctors have regretted, very much in character to change what happened if he could.

What I found so engaging about the Doctor's decision is his fortitude to use The Moment despite the high cost. I recognize that governments are not representative of all the people they represent. However, if you watch "The End Of Time" and "The Day of the Doctor" back to back. You noticed that TDOTD did not represent the stakes of TEOT transparently. The Doctor's decision in TEOT was presented as a preemptive measure to Rassilon and the council's attempt to use The Final Sanction. In TDOTD, the Doctor's decision seems to stem more from war weariness and finally wanting to put an end to the carnage that is erupting all across the universe.

What I find disingenuous is how The Moment is presented. It's a weapon that will destroy Dalek's and Timelords both yes. But there is nothing to justify War Doctor going to such extremes. TDOTD presents The Moment as a quick fix solution to a protracted conflict and the War Doctor is a monster for using it. It's a black and white morality question. Which Moffat uses "There's kids on Galifrey" to justify his revision of the last day of the time war. Digital Spy


Compare to TEOT where The Moment is also presented as a weapon destroy Daleks and Timelords. However it will also save all of creation. Not just from the time war but from Rassilon's plan to make all Time Lord's pure consciousness and end creation and time all together. There are shades of gray in the Doctor's decision under these circumstances. It's a lose lose scenario, and the Doctor choice the arguably lesser of the two ways to lose. His people and the Daleks are destroyed, the time war ends and all of creation is saved. Or he does nothing and Rassilon carries out his plan and only the timelords survive.

Both are ugly yes, but I think the Doctor was able to keep on living and reconcile his decision (pre-TDOTD) because he knew he made the right choice by picking the universe over his home planet. Losing 2.47 billion children is a tradgedy. But the clock was counting down for him to make a decision. He either did nothing and let Rassilon use The Final Sanction, on preemptively counter Rassilon and the council's mad plan.

PS
I didn't include the Dalek fleet, or land troop invasion on Galifrey because the response to that situation was also the deployment of the final sanction. It's weird when you think about it. The Timelords didn't just fight the Dalek's, they fought themselves. TEOT is not the first time the Timelords have been caught doing some dirty shit. Episodes like Trial of a Timelord (The Ravalox-Earth/Framing the Doctor) thing, "Night of The Doctor" has a character exposit dialogue saying the timelords are just as hated as the Daleks, Final Sanction = Reality Bomb of the Dalek's from "Journey's End" and "Stolen Earth", "Arc of Infinity" and the sham trial to execute The Doctor, despite Omega and Casterline being the guilty culprits.

 

[Starkers]

See to my mind the RTD way gives the Doctor an easier get out. "Oh I had to do it because of Rassilon." That's the black/white decision. It strikes me that the decision that the War Doctor made was the one that involved shades of grey...

 

[Venardhi]

The real trick here is that he did make that call. He decided 'Yes, this is worth doing no matter the cost. Because the cost of not doing it is so terrifyingly high' it was only 400 years, an inter-dimensional TARDIS/Rose/AI all-powerful timey-wimey device and one particularly impossible suggestion later that he found a loophole that allowed him to change his mind. 9 and 10 and 11 up to this point may regret their decision every moment of their lives, but nothing up to and including this episode suggest they think it was the wrong decision to have made.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

See to my mind the RTD way gives the Doctor an easier get out. "Oh I had to do it because of Rassilon." That's the black/white decision. It strikes me that the decision that the War Doctor made was the one that involved shades of grey...

Well the race against the clock thing is what really clinches it. The Doctor had to act to save the universe for "the greater good". Rassilon and the council had pushed Galifrey to the brink of destruction by the final day of the time war. Rassilon and the council also sealed Galifrey's fate when in their desperation for survival they took steps to activate The Final Sanction.

The Doctor is a hero. I can imagine him leading and exodus during the final day since apparently their were no TARDIS' left to evacuate the populace. However the ticking clock of the Final Sanction, diverted his attention to more pressing matters.

The innocent suffered with the guilty. There are no winners only losers.

The real trick here is that he did make that call. He decided 'Yes, this is worth doing no matter the cost. Because the cost of not doing it is so terrifyingly high' it was only 400 years, an inter-dimensional TARDIS/Rose/AI all-powerful timey-wimey device and one particularly impossible suggestion later that he found a loophole that allowed him to change his mind. 9 and 10 and 11 up to this point may regret their decision every moment of their lives, but nothing up to and including this episode suggest they think it was the wrong decision to have made.

^Don't forget it took all past, present and a future Doctor, with all their TARDIS' combined to rewrite history and save Galifrey. It wass freaking awesome to see though. I saw it twice in theatres.

 

[The Wormhole]

Not a direct reference to Galifrey but RTD was in charge of DW and TW at the time. So it's subtley implied that the burning planet was Galifrey. Jonah was 15 when he was taken by the space time rift. 7 months had passed on Earth but for Jonah he was aged 40 years before returning.

I never interpreted that as being Gallifrey. I doubt that in the entire history of the universe Gallifrey is the only planet that ever burned.

Besides, RTD wasn't involved in the day-to-day operations of Torchwood during the first two seasons, Chris Chibnall essentially ran the show back then. RTD was only actively involved during Children of Earth and Miracle Day.

 

[diankra]

Where did the other 10 Doctors come from? Did he contact himself asking for help and explaining the situation?

Sounds like one heck of a conference call, but it seems that he dd exactly that. Shouldn't be too difficult, given the use of the Time/Space telegraph in the same episode.

Also, it seems that the first several incarnations were lying their collective asses off about not being able to fly the TARDIS. I bet he gave up after Sarah-Jane called him on it.

I bet they even used the stabilisers.

Remember that, to judge by The Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS exists out of time, and has to make an effort to keep track of the way that even the Doctor thinks of things in terms of a personal past-present-future.
So following that through, if the TARDIS forgets (or choses not to bother) to do that, then she always has access to anything she ever will know at any time in her existence. So if Smith's TARDIS has the result of the calculations and knows what to do in the formation flying, so does Hartnell's, and Capaldi's, and... etc etc.
It makes a sort of sense. After all, it means that unless the TARDIS choses to remember that she's currently broken, she works perfectly. Hence she lands off course at the start of the story so as to give the Doctor something interesting to do, but always lands spot-on target when she has to do so to save the universe in part four...

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Dialogue from episodes that corroborate Galifrey falling and burning. Off the top of my head would be.

There's also dialog in Let's Kill Hitler (along with a couple other episodes) that say that River Song killed the Doctor. I think you're missing the point that the dialog was about the perception of what happened, not necessarily what happened.

BTW, one thing that was interesting was the way that John Hurt, even after seeing his future, still decided he wanted to go through with it. Likewise, Tennant and Smith agreed with him. It was only Clara who forced him to think of a different option.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Dialogue from episodes that corroborate Galifrey falling and burning. Off the top of my head would be.

There's also dialog in Let's Kill Hitler (along with a couple other episodes) that say that River Song killed the Doctor. I think you're missing the point that the dialog was about the perception of what happened, not necessarily what happened.

OR that canon is subjective to the whims of whomever is running the show. RTD did not like the Time Lords so he wrote them out of the show. Moffat waited to the eleventh hour (2nd to last episode of his third season) of his run with Matt Smith as the Doctor to rewrite what we thought were the events of the Time War. His his decision was motivated because he did not like the thought of the Doctor killing children. All the episodes I listed are from the Davies era. I can't remember all the Galifrey references from Matt's era. I think "The Doctor's Wife" and maybe "Hungry Earth" .

BTW, one thing that was interesting was the way that John Hurt, even after seeing his future, still decided he wanted to go through with it. Likewise, Tennant and Smith agreed with him. It was only Clara who forced him to think of a different option.

I've seen the episode about 4x now. I really think the Bad Wolf is there to change history. The War Doctor resolves 2x to use The Moment, and each time the Bad Wolf interrupts him. If she is really there to stand in judgement of the user, then why is she guiding The War Doctor like some companion AI in a Zelda game? The Bad Wolf is what makes it possible for 10 and 11 to breach the Time Locked events of the Time War so they can formulate a plan together. 11 admitted he's had 400 years to think of a way to save Galifrey. I think the 9th Doctor said he contemplated going back also but was unable to in the episode "Father's Day". The Bad Wolf's contribution and Clara's appeal to the Doctor are what kick start the plan to save Galifrey.

I think the reason 10 and 11 agree with War Doctor to press the Moment button together is because they both remember being alone the first time events played through. Again going by what the 10th Doctor says about this "changing their own personal timeline". It would seem that the centuries of calculations and union of all 13 Doctor's and their TARDIS' was a new series of events. Both 10 and 11 are united in their thinking that they can beat the "billion billion Daleks this time because there are 3 of them this time.