Vanguard controversy
- Thread starter JD
- Start date
Fine by me. I don't mind that you returned the books. Sorry they didn't work for you. No hard feelings, dude.
Thanks to everyone who has participated in this discussion. You helped make a loooong day alone at work go by a little quicker. :thumbsup:
With the whole adultery thing, I can deffinitely see why some people would have a problem with it. But IMO I really do think it was a neccissary part of his character, because from my perspective Pennington's story is one of redemption, and for redemption you need something for them to make up for. Personally I am glad that they picked something like adultery, because it was something bad (or in some people's opinions very bad) but in the whole galactic scheme of things it wasn't serious. Plus, it was also a way to give him an emtional connection to the Bombay which was also something that I think the story needed. I wish I could remember Lora so I could comment on what Baerbel said about her, but I haven't read the book since it first came out and don't remember her at all.
One of the actors who played Grandpa on the Walton was Gay.
Oscar Wilde was Gay.
Abe Lincoln was Gay.
Edward de Vere "William Shakespeare" was Gay.
I read books written books by members of the Christian Taliban, and I don't have a problem with it.
If during Star Trek's time there really weren't any Ben Gays then there wouldn't be any people who were Bisexual, or Transgender.
Ditto with Black, Latino, Asian, or women.
Also, no Jews, Gentiles, Wiccans, Atheists, Blind, Deaf.
No inter species people like Spock.
Star Trek includes a broad range of people.
Racism, Sexism, etc ie bigotry was once "officially" declared God's Will.
One final note: As per Homo Sapiens the word "Race" is meaningless.
In the end I would have to avoid a heck of alot.
Including...Star Trek.
Oscar Wilde was Gay.
Abe Lincoln was Gay.
Edward de Vere "William Shakespeare" was Gay.
I read books written books by members of the Christian Taliban, and I don't have a problem with it.
If during Star Trek's time there really weren't any Ben Gays then there wouldn't be any people who were Bisexual, or Transgender.
Ditto with Black, Latino, Asian, or women.
Also, no Jews, Gentiles, Wiccans, Atheists, Blind, Deaf.
No inter species people like Spock.
Star Trek includes a broad range of people.
Racism, Sexism, etc ie bigotry was once "officially" declared God's Will.
One final note: As per Homo Sapiens the word "Race" is meaningless.
In the end I would have to avoid a heck of alot.
Including...Star Trek.
Lonely Squire does not like characters in books that engage in homosexual behavior. I do not think that makes him homophobic.
I do not enjoy Mexican food. I do not think that makes me racist.
I also did not like the adultery that Tim engaged in. Mostly bc I got cheated on and it hurt like hell. I did not return the books, but I kept hoping for awful things to happen to him and was disappointed with how he turned out after the 3 book arc. I do understand, however, that my extremely hostile reaction to him was based on my own experiences and I certainly do not expect everyone to feel that way.
...kinda like Lonely Squire found a part distasteful based on his own feelings. He certainly does not seem to be telling everyone else what to think. He is defending himself from other's attacks, but that is not the same.
Either way, Mr. Mack has created characters that have sparked a great deal of discussion and have managed to garner reactions from returning the books to "hubba, hubba" and everything in between. That certainly speaks to his skill as a writer in fleshing out these imaginary people to the extent that they can inspire discussions such as this one.
-Andrew
I do not enjoy Mexican food. I do not think that makes me racist.
I also did not like the adultery that Tim engaged in. Mostly bc I got cheated on and it hurt like hell. I did not return the books, but I kept hoping for awful things to happen to him and was disappointed with how he turned out after the 3 book arc. I do understand, however, that my extremely hostile reaction to him was based on my own experiences and I certainly do not expect everyone to feel that way.
...kinda like Lonely Squire found a part distasteful based on his own feelings. He certainly does not seem to be telling everyone else what to think. He is defending himself from other's attacks, but that is not the same.
Either way, Mr. Mack has created characters that have sparked a great deal of discussion and have managed to garner reactions from returning the books to "hubba, hubba" and everything in between. That certainly speaks to his skill as a writer in fleshing out these imaginary people to the extent that they can inspire discussions such as this one.
-Andrew
I feel it only fair to warn you, then, that my next Trek story features a character enjoying a big, thick, meaty taquito, wrapping his mouth around it and moaning in pleasure as the flavors explode in his mouth and the hot filling runs down his throat...
But no worries, Lonely: there's none of teh gay! :thumbsup:
^ Sounds like there will be a party in his mouth and everyone's coming.
But if the reason you didn't like Mexican food was because you believed God had ordained that everyone who eats Mexican food was not going to heaven . . . well, I don't know if that would make you racist, but you probably wouldn't have many Mexican friends.
So this is a "hate the sin, stay as far away as possible from the sinner" kind of thing. Still strikes me as homophobic, but in a passive-aggressive way, not the "let's beat up the queer" kind of way.
That sounds snarky, but actually, Lonely Squire does have a fairly civil way of dealing with something that obviously makes him very uncomfortable within his belief system.
Lonely Squire, although I disagree with you on the inherent immorality of homosexuality, because I do not believe in the inherent moral primacy and infallibity of your Bible, I understand why someone with your beliefs would want to, as you say, limit your exposure.
But following up on that, I wonder how you go about this beyond the return of books which feature scenes of homosexual behavior. Do you, as I half-joked above, avoid gay people in general? Would you, say, refuse to have dinner with George Takei? Or would you have dinner with him as long as he didn't bring a boyfriend which would make the homosexuality more obvious? Again, that may sound snarky, but I think it's a fair and legitimate question given some of your previous statements. I truly am curious how you would draw the line to maintain the proper behavior within your belief system. Because there are gay people all around, and a lot of them have created great art, literature, etc. Does the art of a gay person carry some moral taint for you that precludes you from enjoying it? Or are you fine with it as long as it has no obvious homosexual content? Can you support the artistic creations of a gay man without supporting his entire identity, and thus, by extension, his homosexuality?
I never believed those Trek stories were true until it happened to me . . .
No one had ever guessed that Leisner was actually a Hispanic gay porn writer, but now the truth is out . . . he has come out of the bodega, if you will.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
See, I love Mexican food, like most Mexican people I have met. but I am completely against illegal, invading aliens. Many of which are from Mexico. Does that make me a racist?
Same thing applies to homosexuality. I don't think that defines a person's integrity or anything else. It's just one aspect of our some people's lives that contradicts what I believe to be true. I'm not going out and attacking them physically. Just stating an opinion.
The poster I am quoting here makes some less than intelligent Nazi-homosexual connection, for what reason escapes me. It makes you look silly. So please keep the discussion civil. I mean, unless you're Melakon and I don't think that's the case.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Good morning Scott-
Thanks for your questions. I'll try and respond as best I can.
To address the God-homosexuality question, it's my belief, hope and understanding that being homosexual does not exclude a person from entering God's Kingdom. Now, I interpret (correct me if I am wrong) that you don't share the same religious beliefs as I do (if any). However, Christ tells us that the only way to the Father is through Him. It has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with sin. Meaning, if one accepts Christ their sin is washed away and they would live in a different manner.
Anyway, I generally read about 80-100 pages per week as I like to string out a book and enjoy it. I just didn't know where the T'Prynn relationship was going and I didn't want to waste my reading time on something that I don't agree with as subject matter. T'Prynn was one of the key characters in Harbinger and I didn't wish to go further with it.
Also, I realize that these are alien races perhaps not bound by Earthly religious beliefs. However, the author made the decision to depict them as homosexuals for some reason. I didn't agree with his choice. To me, it was more a disagreement with the authors choice than the actual characters themselves.
When I say I limit my family's exposure to homosexuality, I'm speaking in terms of mainstreaming it and having it accepted as normal. It may be accepted as such by some, but not by my faith.
My kids will attend a Christian school and will know what the Bible says on the subject. I wouldn't watch Brokeback Mountain if you paid me either.
That being said, I can certainly deal with societal and artistic contributions from homosexuals. Would I have dinner with George and his boyfriend? As long as doesn't strip down ala "The Naked Time" and make a public display, then yes I would!
So, in closing, I don't hate gay people. A portion of their lives is simply incompatible with my beliefs. If you read my many posts here, you'll also see I am for legal financial and civil union protections for them under the law.
So, anybody feel like some Mexican?
Gosh, who else is surprised that Mr. "All I Want Is Tolerance?" decided to go straight for the baseless Nazi comparison? Godwin must be so proud, Squire.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Well, the Nazi connection is something that I've seen used throughout these forums to hammer conservatives. You're right, it is baseless and uncalled for. When someone uses this it shows their level of communication skills and respect for the other posters here.
Um, I believe Bill was referring to Godwin's Law, Squire.
And, as we've hit the probability of one, can we really go farther and have it not get ugly? This, my friends, is where the real challenge rests.
Why not...
Folks in this thread have been dissecting Lonely Squire's reasons for not wanting to read a story with homosexual sex content. Due to those reasons, some provided by LS others projected onto him, he has been labeled a bigot.
Before you are so sure that my comparison is not apt, do we not need to go into my reasons for not liking Mexican food? Or do the folks on this board just respect my opinion without analyzing every part of it. After all, I am just talking about a culture's culinary expression, not a group's sexual expression.
-Andrew
